Are we safe? ATOS spreads dismay ...

[teamsaint]

even if it were possible to devise such legislation, and if it were desirable and morally right, I certainly wouldn't trust parliament and the lobbyists to actually pass and implement satisfactory laws.
I mean look at the government and disability benefits !!

[vinteuil]

There are vulnerable people who are afraid that they may be considered "a burden", I understand that.

There are many many old and suffering people who want to die.

I do not see that the necessary protection for the former should take priority over the wishes of the latter.

[Flosshilde]

Killing people is wrong is how I see it.
most of us have met the 17 year olds who qualify for medical school, and who a few years later might be in a position to make the kinds of decisions you are talking about. very , very scary.

But the doctor wouldn't be making the decision; the 'patient' would.

[MrGongGong]

I do not see that the necessary protection for the former should take priority over the wishes of the latter.

I do
But I guess some people have never made a decision they later regretted
Making this legal would put huge pressure on those people who are profoundly disabled to opt for death rather than be considered a "burden" on their family and society. IF we had a society that was able to protect the most vulnerable then there might be a case , but we don't

What many people seem to want is what that nice Dr Shipman offered to his patients

[aeolium]

There are vulnerable people who are afraid that they may be considered "a burden", I understand that.

There are many many old and suffering people who want to die.

I do not see that the necessary protection for the former should take priority over the wishes of the latter.

I totally agree.

As it stands, the choices are - as with so much else in this society - all with the well-off (unless really seriously disabled like Tony Nicklinson) who are able to go to Switzerland for assisted suicide. Those desperately ill and suffering who wish to have this option, but lack the means, are forced to endure prolonged and humiliating agony.

[teamsaint]

But the doctor wouldn't be making the decision; the 'patient' would.

do you really believe that would be the case for most vulnerable people?
I don't. And there are good reasons to be sceptical. one visit to a care home should be enough to set alarm bells ringing.

[Flosshilde]

What many people seem to want is what that nice Dr Shipman offered to his patients

But he didn't 'offer' anything to his patients - he made the decision for them. It was murder, & it would still be murder if they hadn't expressed a clear wish to die.

At the moment people can, and do, commit suicide without assistance. If it's accepted that they can make the decision to end their life, why shouldn't someone who lacks the physical ability be able to do so? (& it could argued that if people with a physical disability should have equal access to jobs, services, etc, then they should have equal access to death).

[Flosshilde]

do you really believe that would be the case for most vulnerable people?
I don't. And there are good reasons to be sceptical. one visit to a care home should be enough to set alarm bells ringing.

What do you mean by 'the most vulnerable people'?

[MrGongGong]

it could argued that if people with a physical disability should have equal access to jobs, services, etc, then they should have equal access to death

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Lets start with death then
we might save lots of money we would otherwise spend on drugs, powerchairs, ramps, lifts etc etc

What is a "clear wish" ?
I have had a "clear wish" in the past which I changed my mind about later
So I guess if you have lived a life where you NEVER ever change your mind about ANYTHING
then it's probably ok
but I doubt that there are many folks like that ........

Would people REALLY trust the same folks that gave ATOS et al responsibility with something as important as this ?

[teamsaint]

Actually I said " most vulnerable". But whatever, there are just so many people where there would or could be others around whose interests would be served by Euthanasia.
Hospitals and social services are already rationers of resources, and it doesn't make for pretty viewing watching those decisions being made. As I say, it doesn't take a great leap of imagination.

[amateur51]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Lets start with death then
we might save lots of money we would otherwise spend on drugs, powerchairs, ramps, lifts etc etc

What is a "clear wish" ?
I have had a "clear wish" in the past which I changed my mind about later
So I guess if you have lived a life where you NEVER ever change your mind about ANYTHING
then it's probably ok
but I doubt that there are many folks like that ........

Would people REALLY trust the same folks that gave ATOS et al responsibility with something as important as this ?

You mean politicians of red stripes and blue stripes, Mr GG. It's all the result of this delusion that the private sector can do everything better which is also a very handy way for politicians to avoid the flak for a desperately poor service.

It makes me weep to watch the NHS and services to disabled and poor people sliding down the pan because of political ideology. No Legal Aid worth talking about either :grr:

Here we are nearly in June and the weather's a load of sh..erbert too. You can't trust the Tories with the weather - just remember that folks :laugh:

[amateur51]

Where are the satirists to create some great finger-pointing bowel-loosening mockery of this situation? It cries out for it - in the words of one of our most revered cultural critics ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_8JLkwzpd0

:sadface::biggrin:

[Flosshilde]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Lets start with death then
we might save lots of money we would otherwise spend on drugs, powerchairs, ramps, lifts etc etc

What is a "clear wish" ?
I have had a "clear wish" in the past which I changed my mind about later

People already commit, or try to commit, suicide. Perhaps the Suicide Act 1961, which decriminalised it, should be repealed so that those who were unsuccessful, or even changed their mind before it was too late, could be imprisoned?

[MrGongGong]

People already commit, or try to commit, suicide. Perhaps the Suicide Act 1961, which decriminalised it, should be repealed so that those who were unsuccessful, or even changed their mind before it was too late, could be imprisoned?

I don't have a problem with people committing suicide
OR rather, I wish they wouldn't , and the people I have known who have I miss terribly and wish that they hadn't done it

What IS a problem is a society normalising killing people as a "solution" to problems
the problems are very real indeed (I DO know what severe pain is like where no matter how many times you press the morphine pump it doesn't change or go away!)

BUT, given the way our society is , I don't see how it could protect those who need protection
those who advocate this gloss over it
on his documentary about it Terry Pratchet expressed the opinion that "of course there are safeguards to protect the vulnerable" ....and then moved on
I'm not convinced at all, maybe if you are rich, articulate and famous it's probably fine
but for many of the people I have met then it certainly isn't
and if we DO normalise it , it will become what people think is the "right" thing

I'm more than happy to give away this "freedom" so that some of the people I know with profound disabilities are able to live a fulfilled life without feeling that somehow the world would be better off without them.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well many people who have experience of relatives placed on the Liverpool Pathway tend to see it as a form of homicide ....

i am afraid that this thread is not about euthanasia ... like many things in life a multi faceted issue .... but about the state, representing us, saying we will not spend £££ to keep you alive with your dignity intact ... we willl not ensure your shelter nor your food and we will mistate the nature of your condition in order to avoid the cost of caring .... well for me they can shove it, tax the rich, tax land, tax google tax us all, but i prefer we pay for the care ... because that is a society worth living in