Are we safe? Suspected terrorist attack in London this afternoon

[Guest]

Apparently there's been a terrorist attack in London this afternoon.

A serving British soldier making his way home to barracks in Woolwich from central London was attacked. Eye witnesses say the two men hacked the soldier to death and then dragged his body into the middle of the road. It's alleged that they then then posed for photographs and explained why they did it to a passer-by who was videoing the aftermath with a smart phone.

Police said that it's being treated as a terrorist attack.
Are we safe?

[Mr Pee]

Apparently there's been a terrorist attack in London this afternoon.

A serving British soldier making his way home to barracks in Woolwich from central London was attacked. Eye witnesses say the two men hacked the soldier to death and then dragged his body into the middle of the road. It's alleged that they then then posed for photographs and explained why they did it to a passer-by who was videoing the aftermath with a smart phone.

Police said that it's being treated as a terrorist attack.
Are we safe?

We will never be safe from deranged, murderous individuals. If the perpetrators of this horror claim it as a terrorist attack, that is their perogative, but it was murder, plain and simple. One can never predict such random savagery, or, sadly, be safe from it.

[MrGongGong]

We will never be safe from deranged, murderous individuals. If the perpetrators of this horror claim it as a terrorist attack, that is their perogative, but it was murder, plain and simple. One can never predict such random savagery, or, sadly, be safe from it.

indeed
even when it's done by those who are supposed to protect us :sadface:

This sounds horrific
not meaning to minimise what its a terrible thing but I wonder how many people were killed on the roads today ?

[Ian Thumwood]

Probably safer than a lot of other civilians in places like Pakistan:-

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2013/03/15/pakistan-government-says-at-least-400-civilians-killed-in-drone-strikes/

I fear this type of thing will be more previlent the longer we interfer in the East.

[Simon]

even when it's done by those who are supposed to protect us :sadface:

Just shows how out of touch I am! I've never heard of this being done by anyone trying to protect us. Perhaps you'd enlighten...

[MrGongGong]

Just shows how out of touch I am! I've never heard of this being done by anyone trying to protect us. Perhaps you'd enlighten...

I went through Stockwell station today. Which is not to minimise the terrible events in another part of South London
As mr Pee said
Murder, plain and simple

[Beef Oven]

I went through Stockwell station today. Which is not to minimise the terrible events in another part of South London
As mr Pee said
Murder, plain and simple

To compare a premeditated murder to what happened at Stockwell tube is to minimise the terrible events that happened to day - pure and simple.

[Pabmusic]

...Are we safe?

We are about as safe as we were before the attack. It ought to be surprising that there have been so few incidents; anyone who remembers the IRA attacks will know that attacks on soldiers near their barracks were not unknown. Remember the two shot on Tamworth station, or those shot in a Dutch market place?

The danger with this sort of incident is that it may spark copycat actions, in which case (for a period at least) the likelihood of attacks will be a little greater, but that is countered by the fact that we're more vigilant for much the same period, making successful attacks a little less likely. Overall, the danger remains the same.

[MrGongGong]

To compare a premeditated murder to what happened at Stockwell tube is to minimise the terrible events that happened to day - pure and simple.

I think the effects are equally dreadful and inexcusable
You asked about whether people felt safe
Condoning murder with one hand whilst condemning it with the other makes us all unsafe imv

[Beef Oven]

I think the effects are equally dreadful and inexcusable

Both are dreadful and there's no excuse for killing people. But a premeditated murder shouldn't be compared to, say, for example, manslaughter.

[Ian Thumwood]

Beef Oven

Can you please explain to me why the murder of Mr De Menezes should be considered any less horrific or trivial than the dreadful events of today? The fact that Mr De Menezes was actually assasinated by members of the police who are public servants employed by the Crown is perhaps more shocking than the action of terrorists who not employed by the State to keepm everyone safe and unhold the law. The frightening thing about the Stockwell incident was that the Brazilian could have easily have been apprehended and the error resolved as opposed to being summarily executed by the police.

[Beef Oven]

Beef Oven

Can you please explain to me why the murder of Mr De Menezes should be considered any less horrific or trivial than the dreadful events of today? The fact that Mr De Menezes was actually assasinated by members of the police who are public servants employed by the Crown is perhaps more shocking than the action of terrorists who not employed by the State to keepm everyone safe and unhold the law. The frightening thing about the Stockwell incident was that the Brazilian could have easily have been apprehended and the error resolved as opposed to being summarily executed by the police.

It's different in the sense that it was not premeditated. It's really as simple as that.

P.S. The death of Mr Mendez was shocking, sad, avoidable and very upsetting.

[Pabmusic]

It's different in the sense that it was not premeditated. It's really as simple as that...

Really? You must be giving a different meaning to 'premeditated' than anyone else does. There can be very little that is more premeditated that to keep a suspect under close observation, follow him from his home (in continuous contact with the operation commander), onto an underground train and then to execute him (8 shots to the head, wasn't it?). That is wholly premeditated, just like the 'death on the rock' incident in the 1980s.

The Menezes killing was entirely premeditated. It was carefully planned and controlled; they just got the wrong man.

I don't want this to become a rerun of the recent discussions of this terrible incident, but I can't help but wonder how attitudes on all sides might have been different if they'd got the right person, with a bomb strapped to him. You see, there are two big questions arising out of this case - how did they make such a terrible error in wrongly identifying Menezes? And is a 'shoot to kill' policy acceptable in a democratic society anyway? The police were entirely guilty (of manslaughter, in my view) in respect of the blunder. The second issue is rather more difficult.

[Beef Oven]

Really? You must be giving a different meaning to 'premeditated' than anyone else does. There can be very little that is more premeditated that to keep a suspect under close observation, follow him from his home (in continuous contact with the operation commander), onto an underground train and then to execute him (8 shots to the head, wasn't it?). That is wholly premeditated, just like the 'death on the rock' incident in the 1980s.

The Menezes killing was entirely premeditated. It was carefully planned and controlled; they just got the wrong man.

I don't want this to become a rerun of the recent discussions of this terrible incident, but I can't help but wonder how attitudes on all sides might have been different if they'd got the right person, with a bomb strapped to him. You see, there are two big questions arising out of this case - how did they make such a terrible error in wrongly identifying Menezes? And is a 'shoot to kill' policy acceptable in a democratic society anyway? The police were entirely guilty (of manslaughter, in my view) in respect of the blunder. The second issue is rather more difficult.

I don't think the meaning I give to premeditated is wrong or different from the mainstream view. Yours must be though, methinks.

[Pabmusic]

I don't think the meaning I give to premeditated is wrong or different from the mainstream view. Yours must be though, methinks.

Well, you think wrong. :smiley:

I'm not sure quite where to begin - there are just so many dictionaries about, online and 'real'. Here's Chamber's on 'premeditate': "To plan or think out beforehand; to meditate upon beforehand" ; Collins: "To plan or consider (something, such as a violent crime) beforehand" ; Oxford: "To think out or plan (an action, especially a crime) beforehand" ; Cambridge: "Something (especially a crime or something unpleasant) done after being thought about or carefully planned".

Now I'm one of the first to acknowledge that words can change their meanings over time (usually after people use them without understanding their meanings) but this is not a good example, since dictionaries give no alternative or colloquial meanings.