Tax dodging is not only limited to the UK

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  • scottycelt

    #46
    I suppose one could argue that the UK government itself is being unhelpful and hypocritical by opposing a EU banking transaction tax, for example. London is already the main European centre for share deals etc because of deregulation and lower dealing costs resulting in jobs which otherwise would go to more local destinations around the globe. In the same way tax the Irish Republic and Luxembourg benefit from the UK's and others' inability to introduce satisfactory tax-collection arrangements.

    Out of interest I watched a bit more of the committee proceedings on BBC Parliament last night and I actually felt sorry for the guy from Google (something I didn't at all anticipate!) who had to suffer unnecessary lecturing and haranguing from the 'chair'. She kept interrupting him before he could finish answering the questions and adopted a thoroughly sneering and "matronising" tone towards him. She did exactly the same with the female representative from HMRC. Surely a chairperson's job is to keep everyone on track and maintain order in the proceedings and not simply dominate the process with her/his own preconceived view of the matter?

    Furthermore, there was absolutely no need for this absurd committee in the first place. Everyone already knows why these companies avoid UK tax. They save money by doing so and by doing so perfectly legally. We don't need a group of MPs trying to pretend that they didn't already know any of this, and there is anything very shameful about it all, especially when some of these MPs themselves have a somewhat less than lily-white record in looking after the interests of the UK Exchequer.

    Whatever our views about the 'morality' of any of this, the only people who can do much to really change the situation for good or ill are the MPs themselves and that's where the media's gaze should be mainly directed, imho.

    Comment

    • MrGongGong
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 18357

      #47
      Whatever our views about the 'morality' of any of this
      :laugh:

      Is that the view from the Vatican these days ?
      'morality' is optional ?

      Never mind the wrong things in the world , just concentrate on getting a good deal for yourself then :yikes:

      Comment

      • scottycelt

        #48
        Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
        :laugh:

        Is that the view from the Vatican these days ?
        'morality' is optional ?

        Never mind the wrong things in the world , just concentrate on getting a good deal for yourself then :yikes:
        No, I'm simply suggesting that (as far as I'm aware) there is no moral or criminal code that claims that one must pay more tax that one is legally required to do. There is however something immoral and criminal about MPs fiddling their expenses, as that amounts to theft, and will justifiably earn an appropriate punishment for those convicted.

        I'm simply pointing out that difference and I believe the Vatican is in no way involved in UK tax avoidance, which must be dreadfully annoying for you.

        Yes, I always concentrate on getting a good deal in any business transaction. Strangely, I've always found that more pleasing and acceptable than the alternative.

        Comment

        • teamsaint
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 25190

          #49
          the "immorality", (a difficult concept where tax is concerned) is in the wholesale influencing of the rules by lobbyists, and the compliance of the politicians.
          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

          I am not a number, I am a free man.

          Comment

          • MrGongGong
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 18357

            #50
            Originally posted by scottycelt View Post
            No, I'm simply suggesting that (as far as I'm aware) there is no moral or criminal code that claims that one must pay more tax that one is legally required to do.
            I think that there IS something immoral (and I don't share your belief in the guy in the sky) with companies using legal but iffy methods to make out that they don't have to pay tax EVEN if it is strictly "legal".
            I don't see that much difference between this and MP's using "legal" ways to "fiddle" their expenses......both might be legal but still antisocial.
            I'm sure the Vatican does it's own dodgy tax avoidance anyway ..........

            what is a "good deal" ?
            is a serious question

            sometimes IMV a "good deal" means that you have less but increase the happiness of others

            Comment

            • amateur51

              #51
              Originally posted by scottycelt View Post

              Yes, I always concentrate on getting a good deal in any business transaction. Strangely, I've always found that more pleasing and acceptable than the alternative.
              Your being a sophisticated shopper, scotty I'm sure means that the lowest price is not the single determinant :winkeye:

              Comment

              • scottycelt

                #52
                Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                I think that there IS something immoral (and I don't share your belief in the guy in the sky) with companies using legal but iffy methods to make out that they don't have to pay tax EVEN if it is strictly "legal".
                I don't see that much difference between this and MP's using "legal" ways to "fiddle" their expenses......both might be legal but still antisocial.
                I'm sure the Vatican does it's own dodgy tax avoidance anyway ..........

                what is a "good deal" ?
                is a serious question

                sometimes IMV a "good deal" means that you have less but increase the happiness of others
                The point is, Mr GG, that MPs fiddling expenses is thieving and must therefore be considered both illegal and immoral even I'm sure by the scoundrels in dens of iniquity like Vatican City . Companies operating on a global scale and choosing the place to pay the lowest tax is neither illegal nor necessarily immoral. In fact in the Republic of Ireland it might be viewed as a thoroughly 'good thing', creating jobs and tax receipts for the local economy.

                'A good deal' for me is one which benefits all parties involved to which you appear to have some curious moral objection. If one party is unhappy with the arrangements it should simply pull out of the deal and seek a better one, eh?. :cool:

                Comment

                • Serial_Apologist
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 37559

                  #53
                  Originally posted by scottycelt View Post
                  Companies operating on a global scale and choosing the place to pay the lowest tax is neither illegal nor necessarily immoral. In fact in the Republic of Ireland it might be viewed as a thoroughly 'good thing', creating jobs and tax receipts for the local economy.
                  I would certainly have thought such a race to the bottom with begging bowl purportedly on behalf of one's workforce was certainly unethical, if not as yet illegal.

                  Comment

                  • MrGongGong
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 18357

                    #54
                    Originally posted by scottycelt View Post
                    The point is, Mr GG, that MPs fiddling expenses is thieving and must therefore be considered both illegal and immoral even I'm sure by the scoundrels in dens of iniquity like Vatican City
                    Depends on what you mean by "fiddling"
                    I'm not keen on any of them though ..........
                    International companies trading in the UK and fiddling their tax affairs so that they "make" their profits "elsewhere" IS immoral even if it is strictly "legal"
                    as is companies from the UK selling arms
                    but I guess morality has little to do with it if you are always after the "best" deal :sadface:

                    Comment

                    • scottycelt

                      #55
                      By "fiddling" I mean "thieving", Mr GG ... you know the sort of thing when MPs end up in jail after claiming thousands of pounds in false expenses and hoping no one will notice?

                      Right on cue there is an article this morning in The Sunday Herald which, for me, sums up the whole dishonest sham.



                      No mock moral outrage here, just the facts, indicating where much of the 'blame' and 'hypocrisy' concerning tax-avoidance actually lies.

                      Our MPs might do well to read articles of this sort before appearing on all these useless, time-wasting, self-promoting committees which, in truth, only really end up as a seemingly never-ending TV advert for their own smugness, buck-passing and incompetence.

                      Comment

                      • MrGongGong
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 18357

                        #56
                        Originally posted by scottycelt View Post
                        By "fiddling" I mean "thieving", Mr GG ... you know the sort of thing when MPs end up in jail after claiming thousands of pounds in false expenses and hoping no one will notice?
                        .
                        Indeed
                        which isn't unlike
                        multinational companies avoiding millions of pounds worth of tax by claiming that they didn't make the profits in the UK

                        Many (not the ones who went to prison) of the MP's who were "fiddling" their expenses were doing something that was perfectly legal and within the rules at the time (duckhouse anyone ? ) .
                        The problem with the expenses thing is that some people seem unable to understand the difference between an allowance and expenses.

                        Comment

                        • teamsaint
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 25190

                          #57
                          great link Scotty.

                          They are all in it together......
                          labour as well of course.
                          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                          I am not a number, I am a free man.

                          Comment

                          • amateur51

                            #58
                            Looks like EdM has been listening to scottyc

                            Labour leader Ed Miliband says he will write new rules to tackle corporate tax avoidance if he wins the next election, even without international agreement.


                            Meanwhile, the soon-to-be ex-Governor has been listening to me, apparently

                            The outgoing Bank of England governor warns a government plan to boost the housing market with part-mortgage guarantees has no long-term place.


                            :winkeye:

                            Comment

                            • scottycelt

                              #59
                              Originally posted by amateur51 View Post
                              Looks like EdM has been listening to scottyc

                              Labour leader Ed Miliband says he will write new rules to tackle corporate tax avoidance if he wins the next election, even without international agreement.


                              Meanwhile, the soon-to-be ex-Governor has been listening to me, apparently

                              The outgoing Bank of England governor warns a government plan to boost the housing market with part-mortgage guarantees has no long-term place.


                              :winkeye:
                              Well, maybe that's precisely why young Ed heads the polls and Sir Mervyn is on his way out, amsey ... :whistle:

                              Comment

                              • amateur51

                                #60
                                Originally posted by scottycelt View Post
                                Well, maybe that's precisely why young Ed heads the polls and Sir Mervyn is on his way out, amsey ... :whistle:
                                What, no Chrrristian charity, sirrah?! :yikes:

                                'Tis precisely because olde Merve is soon to depart his post that he is able to speak so, think'st ye not? :whistle:

                                Back to cleaning th'oven with ye - Mistress celt decrees it so, for 'tis Sunday :laugh:

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