"Culture" Minister demands arts make money before subsidisation
Collapse
X
-
amateur51
-
Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Postexpand one's perception of beauty
Beauty is only skin deep (I don't agree with this).
"Beauty" is culture- and conditioning-specific.
Some people have an inner beauty; some people become more (or less) beautiful the more one looks at them. A beautiful man or woman may have a nasty personality, which makes them less beautiful as a person (to me).
Rohan de Saram has said that the music of Xenakis has beauty but that beauty is not its primary function. It is beautiful in the way a natural object such as driftwood has beauty.
My old boss used to say that beauty was in the eye of the beer-holder. :ale:Last edited by Tapiola; 03-05-13, 10:49.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by MrGongGong View Postindeed
but in this particular context (Western Art Music) it would be difficult to describe Bartok as "tuneless"
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Ian View PostIt depends to what extent you are clinging on to the idea that questions of 'tunefulness' or 'tuneless' are matters of fact - rather than opinion.
because within the context we are discussing
Bartok is very much "tune based music"
there are other contexts where it's more a matter of "opinion" indeed
but that seems a bit of a simple "get out" to me ?
I find Metal Machine Music rather "tuneful" BUT within the context of the Western Classical Tradition it might be something else
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by MrGongGong View PostNO it doesn't
because within the context we are discussing
Bartok is very much "tune based music"
there are other contexts where it's more a matter of "opinion" indeed
but that seems a bit of a simple "get out" to me ?
I find Metal Machine Music rather "tuneful" BUT within the context of the Western Classical Tradition it might be something else
But when someone describes something as 'tuneful' or 'tuneless' they are really expressing an opinion about the perceived merit of that tune - not commenting on the absence or otherwise of melodic elements.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by MrGongGong View PostNO it doesn't
because within the context we are discussing
Bartok is very much "tune based music"
there are other contexts where it's more a matter of "opinion" indeed
but that seems a bit of a simple "get out" to me ?
I find Metal Machine Music rather "tuneful" BUT within the context of the Western Classical Tradition it might be something else
Comment
-
-
Richard Barrett
Originally posted by Tapiola View PostRohan de Saram has said that the music of Xenakis has beauty but that beauty is not its primary function.
Bartók's music is indeed not just fundamentally based on "tunes" but on the folk traditions of his homeland and surrounding regions. To regard it as "tuneless" is not very far from saying Central European folk music is itself tuneless, though I guess a xenophobe would have no problem holding such an opinion.
Comment
-
Richard Barrett
Originally posted by Tapiola View PostNo tunes to speak of in Ligeti's Atmospheres
Comment
-
Simon
Well, if nothing else, my comments have led to an outbreak of rationality and civil posts - some from unexpected quarters.
I find myself compelled, with some pleasure, to respond civilly to a logical contribution from Mr GG.
Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
Surely the point of subsidy is to create opportunities for things to exist that couldn't exist without it ?
Didn't some twit once say something along the lines of "if people don't walk out of my concerts, then I've failed" ? It's precisely that attitude that is so undeserving of public subsidy.
Originally posted by MrGongGong View Postthere are some things that simply wont exist without funding
now you can take a view (as many do) that that's tough we can live without Opera , HCMF etc etc
But many of us feel that these things are vital parts of our society.
These productions, because they are accessible, open doors to areas of interest for thousands each year, and have an obvious social value. Once the interest is engaged - via taxpayers' funds, used properly - then some may go on to be prepared to allocate some of their disposable income to other forms of art. Some may take an interest in far less accessible art, for whatever reason. That is excellent and IMV how it should be.
It is for this reason, therefore, that I argue that any public money should be aimed at attracting a reasonably wide section of the community, and certainly not facilitating navel-gazing of some odd pseudo-artist who has little talent and no general appeal.
Originally posted by MrGongGong View PostIf you subscribe to the view that only things one uses oneself should get funding ...
Comment
-
Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostI
Bartók's music is indeed not just fundamentally based on "tunes" but on the folk traditions of his homeland and surrounding regions. To regard it as "tuneless" is not very far from saying Central European folk music is itself tuneless, though I guess a xenophobe would have no problem holding such an opinion.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Ian View PostLots of composers have based their tunes on local folk traditions. I don’t think it is unreasonable, let alone xenophobic, to think that some of those composers have written better tunes than others.
I can almost hear Margaret Thatcher roundly denouncing Simon for attempting to pour scorn on Bartók, but let's not dwell on that...
Comment
-
-
Richard Barrett
Originally posted by Ian View PostLots of composers have based their tunes on local folk traditions. I don’t think it is unreasonable, let alone xenophobic, to think that some of those composers have written better tunes than others.
Comment
-
An_Inspector_Calls
Originally posted by ahinton View PostPerhaps not, but we're in danger of straying from the point about individuals claiming that, as certain music is "ugly", or "tuneless", or what you will, it is therefore "rubbish", won't "last", won't appeal to more than the tiniest minority of people and therefore unworthy of financial support; the suggestion that a composer as widely performed, enjoyed, written about, admired and respected as Bartók has been for well over three quarters of a century perhaps serves to illustrate well the sheer absurdity of such notions.
Comment
-
Originally posted by ahinton View PostPerhaps not, but we're in danger of straying from the point about individuals claiming that, as certain music is "ugly", or "tuneless", or what you will, it is therefore "rubbish", won't "last", won't appeal to more than the tiniest minority of people and therefore unworthy of financial support; the suggestion that a composer as widely performed, enjoyed, written about, admired and respected as Bartók has been for well over three quarters of a century perhaps serves to illustrate well the sheer absurdity of such notions.
I can almost hear Margaret Thatcher roundly denouncing Simon for attempting to pour scorn on Bartók, but let's not dwell on that...
Comment
-
Comment