Boston Marathon: Is terrorism ever justified?

[scottycelt]

I'm not willing to dignify some of the twaddle put forth on this thread by two or three cloud cuckoo land-based posters - of which you seem to be one - by responding to it. Life is too short ... people either have the IQ that provides a minimum level of awareness of what's going on in the world, or they don't.

Why didn't you just say "I haven't the slightest clue how I would have managed the situation differently and successfully"?

If your llfe is too short it would have saved you even more time.

[Richard Barrett]

Why didn't you just say "I haven't the slightest clue how I would have managed the situation differently and successfully"?

Sorry, but since when has being in a position to criticise something been equivalent to being in a position to do it better oneself? Imagine you go to a piano recital and remark afterwards that you found the pianist's playing lacking in some way. Would you find it reasonable for someone to reply "you have no right to say that unless you could play it better yourself"? Or would you find that a silly and timewasting line of argument?

[Mr Pee]

Sorry, but since when has being in a position to criticise something been equivalent to being in a position to do it better oneself? Imagine you go to a piano recital and remark afterwards that you found the pianist's playing lacking in some way. Would you find it reasonable for someone to reply "you have no right to say that unless you could play it better yourself"? Or would you find that a silly and timewasting line of argument?

I don't think that's much of an argument. Even if you can't play the piano for toffee, you can still comment that you would have liked more legato, more dynamics, different tempi etc. You wouldn't be much of a critic if your review just said " I didn't like Askenazy's playing in some way." Most critics can't play the piano better than Ashkenazy, but they can at least say why they didn't like his playing, and explain what they thought should have been done differently.

If a number of posters here are so ready to say that the tactics were wrong, then surely they must at least have an idea as to an alternative. The professional law enforcement agencies decided that a temporary lockdown was the best way of managing the situation, keeping civilians off the streets and out of harms way. How much more difficult and dangerous their task would have been without such a measure is barely imaginable.

Yet despite Scotty's repeated calls for anybody who has been lambasting the police and FBI for their- (ultimately succesful)- tactics, it seems no-one has offered an alternative solution.

[Mr Pee]

The earlier link to this article still seems to be up the creek, but here's one that works. Once you have read this, Boilk and others, I really don't understand how you can continue with your misguided nonsense:-

http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/william-rivers-pitt/49229/random-notes-from-the-police-state

[Richard Barrett]

Even if you can't play the piano for toffee, you can still comment that you would have liked more legato, more dynamics, different tempi etc.

Which is exactly what the commenters have been saying - that the response should have been less aggressive and should have stayed within the law. Are you awake yet this morning?

[Richard Barrett]

Once you have read this, Boilk and others, I really don't understand how you can continue with your misguided nonsense

As I've already said, (a) Pitt's article has an agenda which he never actually states, which is brought out by the comments mentioned by Bryn, and (b) Boilk's linked video tells a different story, which means that Pitt's view of things must be incomplete, unless the video is faked.

[Mr Pee]

As I've already said, (a) Pitt's article has an agenda which he never actually states, which is brought out by the comments mentioned by Bryn, and (b) Boilk's linked video tells a different story, which means that Pitt's view of things must be incomplete, unless the video is faked.

Ah yes, a hidden agenda. There's always a hidden agenda, isn't there? The universal get-out phrase.:erm:

And if Pitt's view is incomplete, I would venture that it is a lot more complete than a few minutes of grainy video, which is nothing more than a snapshot of a massive and lengthy police operation. Rather like a 4 minute excerpt from the Ring cycle, it gives you no idea of the bigger picture.

[scottycelt]

Sorry, but since when has being in a position to criticise something been equivalent to being in a position to do it better oneself? Imagine you go to a piano recital and remark afterwards that you found the pianist's playing lacking in some way. Would you find it reasonable for someone to reply "you have no right to say that unless you could play it better yourself"? Or would you find that a silly and timewasting line of argument?

The analogy is false. As Mr Pee correctly points out if one goes as far as to criticise a course of action (especially in an emergency situation and especially when it did not result in failure) then others are surely entitled to expect that person to outline his or her preferred course of action. In the same way if I was qualified enough to criticise the performance of a professional pianist (which I'm certainly not!) you might reasonably expect me to explain what that pianist should have done better or differently.

As it happens, it was Russ_H who asked the question and I joined him in enquiring why he had never received a proper reply to that question ... and still hasn't.

[ahinton]

The analogy is false. As Mr Pee correctly points out if one goes as far as to criticise a course of action (especially in an emergency situation and especially when it did not result in failure) then others are surely entitled to expect that person to outline his or her preferred course of action. In the same way if I was qualified enough to criticise the performance of a professional pianist (which I'm certainly not!) you might reasonably expect me to explain what that pianist should have done better or differently.

As it happens, it was Russ_H who asked the question and I joined him in enquiring why he had never received a proper reply to that question ... and still hasn't.

I'm sorry, scotty - the analogy is quite clearly not false. Let's assume for a moment that as some part of the response to this incident a police officer or officers acted in a way or ways that were demonstrably contrary to any current US law or laws; that would be a simple fact capable of understanding and acceptance by most members of the public, not only by experienced specialist criminal lawyers, professional criminologists or members of the American judiciary. Let us also remember that those in US itself who pronounce opinions upon how the matter was handled by the authorities are for the most part especially entitled to do so because they're US taxpayers who fund those authorities; however, such entitlement is of itself self-evidently not (nor indeed should it be nor would any sensible person expect it to be) dependent upon each member of the American public expressing such an opinion being fully qualified not only to analyse all aspects of such action but also to set out in detail all of the alternative procedures that should instead have been followed.

Which part of Richard Barrett's analogy do you not understand or accept and why?

[amateur51]

Ah yes, a hidden agenda. There's always a hidden agenda, isn't there? The universal get-out phrase.:erm:

One you've used about the Guardian yourself quite recently, Mr Pee.:whistle:

[ahinton]

Ah yes, a hidden agenda. There's always a hidden agenda, isn't there? The universal get-out phrase.:erm:

No, it's not a "get-out phrase", "universal" or otherwise; there is a world of difference between a "get-out phrase" and an "agenda", as should surely be obvious to anyone with a reasonable command of the English language.

[scottycelt]

I can't believe you're asking that question seriously. Iraq has already been mentioned. Afghanistan would be another example. And then there's Bahrain. And occupied Palestine. And the USA's good ally Saudi Arabia, the most extreme Islamic fundamentalist state in the world. Will that do for now?

Not really, you haven't even begun ...

Iraq is run by an Iraqi government. Afghanistan is run by an Afghan government and the long operation there has UN support. Bahrain has its own government. Saudi Arabia as well. Israel is another mid-east country with its own government, and which currently occupies Palestinian territory. The West (most recently Obama) has repeatedly urged a two-state solution to the problem.

Where is the current 'Western' repression and subjugation of the local population in any of these countries?

[Richard Barrett]

Ah yes, a hidden agenda. There's always a hidden agenda, isn't there?

No, there isn't always. But in this case there is; I explained what it was, as did (at greater length) several of the commenters on the Truthout site. it seems to be a characteristic of posts here by you, scottycelt and others that they often just repeatedly say "oh no it wasn't" or words to that effect without introducing anything new into the argument. If the "lockdown" in Boston didn't really happen, as Pitt suggests, why did the Boston police commissioner appear before the media to justify ordering it? Why did the governor of Massachusetts call a press conference to defend it?

Regarding the Ring, there are many 4-minute excerpts which recount more or less the whole story up intil that point. Some would say (though heaven forfend) to the point of pedantic excess.

[Richard Barrett]

Iraq is run by an Iraqi government. Afghanistan is run by an Afghan government

Dream on.

[amateur51]

Not really, you haven't even begun ...

Iraq is run by an Iraqi government. Afghanistan is run by an Afghan government and the long operation there has UN support. Bahrain has its own government. Saudi Arabia as well. Israel is another mid-east country with its own government, and which currently occupies Palestinian territory. The West (most recently Obama) has repeatedly urged a two-state solution to the problem.

Where is the current 'Western' repression and subjugation of the local population in any of these countries?

The West caused the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan and we're still in Afghanistan - your disingenuous wriggling does you no credit