Boston Marathon: Is terrorism ever justified?

[scottycelt]

It was a brutal, violent and uncivilised act, no question. The questions I posed were: how does characteristing the people who did it as "savages" (ie. "different from you and me" in some fundamental but undefined way) help at all to understand why these things happen and how to stop them from happening? and how does it reflect on attitudes towards brutal, violent and uncivilised acts to give a small one so much more attention than a much larger one, just because it happens to take place in the USA rather than Iraq?

Yes. I agree with you. That is a reflection on our news media than the terrible events themselves. In fact we do not even need to go beyond Europe to find these double-standards. There was a mass shooting in Serbia the other day which received scant attention here. The UK media appears to be interested in everything American but shows little interest in events in the rest of the world unless it kills thousands like a major tsunami or earthquake.

However, while I don't wish to get tied-up in a useless argument about a single word, I think those who plant bombs amongst wholly innocent folk are clearly uncivilised and, therefore, can be fairly described as 'savages'. How we can stop people from indulging in such savagery is another matter entirely!

I believe 'savages' is a rather more meaningful and accurate description than 'monsters' which is a much over-used word in the media.

[Beef Oven]

I'm not so sure about that, given that some radical Islamic groups now defined as the enemy were once armed by the West on the "My enemy's friend is my friend" principle.

I'd better add that there's as yet of course no indication that the Boston outgrage was perpetrated by Islamic militants, before Calum reminds me!

What's Islam got to do with this thread, or my comment to MrGonGong?

[Anna]

But is it 'terrorism' as we usually define it, aka Islamic fundamentalists? Nobody has claimed responsbility, and as it happened on Patriots Day, April 15th, which is US Tax Day when everyone has to file their tax returns, it could be the work of some deluded right-wing 'Patriot cum Tea Party' nutter acting alone, as in the Norwegian massacre by Anders Brevik. It's also close to the anniversary of two other 'Patriot' outrages.

But, whoever is responsible, and whatever their misguided beliefs, there is no excuse for targetting the Boston marathon spectators.

[MrGongGong]

But, whoever is responsible, and whatever their misguided beliefs, there is no excuse for targetting the Boston marathon spectators.

That goes without saying IMV

[Richard Barrett]

How we can stop people from indulging in such savagery is another matter entirely!

It is. But my point, once more, was that defining people as "good" or "evil" (or "savages") might well be a hindrance to that aim. As we know from countless reports, someone who plants a bomb might be my or your next-door neighbour who would never be suspected of being a "savage" until the act is carried out. Was this person a "savage" all along? or was there something that pushed them into it?

[Beef Oven]

That goes without saying IMV

And many things are being said that don't go.

[ahinton]

It is. But my point, once more, was that defining people as "good" or "evil" (or "savages") might well be a hindrance to that aim. As we know from countless reports, someone who plants a bomb might be my or your next-door neighbour who would never be suspected of being a "savage" until the act is carried out. Was this person a "savage" all along? or was there something that pushed them into it?

You seem to be having some trouble in getting this across to a few people; most of us, I think, understand it well. Perhaps for those that don't, the example of the choirmaster and one-time head of music at a certain educational establishment in a well-known city in the north west of England who was recently convicted of several counts of child sexual abuse might be illustrative; many people supported him at least up until the conviction because of his reputation as a musician. He was both a widely respected musician and a child sexual abuser; does that make him a part-time "civilised artist" and part-time "evil" child sex abuser? (and, lest anyone be tempted, please don't let's have the thread distracted into a debate on that subject - I refer to it for illustrative purposes only).

No - as you say, it is the acts of terrorism, abuse and/or whatever else that have to be addressed.

[Serial_Apologist]

What's Islam got to do with this thread, or my comment to MrGonGong?

Oh dear - we're back to put-downs are we? Two's company and three's a crowd??

I'm not going to patronise you by spelling out what was as obvious in my posting as in GG's - weapons is weapons.

[scottycelt]

It is. But my point, once more, was that defining people as "good" or "evil" (or "savages") might well be a hindrance to that aim. As we know from countless reports, someone who plants a bomb might be my or your next-door neighbour who would never be suspected of being a "savage" until the act is carried out. Was this person a "savage" all along? or was there something that pushed them into it?

Hmm, we're back to 'good' and 'evil' again.

Savages can be civilised but that doesn't mean they were never savages, or can never revert to savagery. If your next-door neighbour fell out with you over some matter and then proceeded to march into town and plant a couple of bombs amongst hundreds of innocent shoppers, I would certainly consider that a most 'evil' and a 'savage' act. His (or her) reason for acting in such a manner is irrelevant ... it doesn't make the act any less savage. People have a clear choice whether to act in a civilised or savage manner. It is up to them. Nobody or nothing else is responsible.

[MrGongGong]

Savages can be civilised but that doesn't mean they were never savages, .

I think you really need to find another word
when I read what you write it brings up the whole "Boys Own Paper"
stuff that I remember reading at my grandmothers house
which isn't helpful at all ..........

[scottycelt]

You seem to be having some trouble in getting this across to a few people; most of us, I think, understand it well. ... No - as you say, it is the acts of terrorism, abuse and/or whatever else that have to be addressed.

No trouble at all, I can assure you ahinton. Not for the first time, I simply remain unconvinced by your and others' viewpoint on this matter.

I certainly don't believe that celebrated musicians and choirmasters (and even composers, ahinton!) are any less capable of savagery (or abuse) than the rest of us. Heavens, no.

Surely, it is not the acts of terrorism (often mass slaughter and maiming of innocent third-parties) that have to be addressed ... we already know just about every horrifying thing we need to know about those ... but the bloodthirsty savages who carry them out?

[ahinton]

I certainly don't believe that celebrated musicians and choirmasters (and even composers, ahinton!) are any less capable of savagery (or abuse) than the rest of us. Heavens, no.

Surely, it is not the acts of terrorism (often mass slaughter and maiming of innocent third-parties) that have to be addressed ... we already know just about every horrifying thing we need to know about those ... but the bloodthirsty savages who carry them out?

Leaving out the "bloodthirsty savages" of who you write (and that's the best thing to do), what has to be addressed is not only the slaughter and maiming of innocent parties (as you correctly say) but also what led to those acts being carried out, as Richard Barrett has pointed out.

[Richard Barrett]

His (or her) reason for acting in such a manner is irrelevant ... it doesn't make the act any less savage.

No it doesn't (sigh), but one more time NOT ADDRESSING THE REASONS IS ONE WAY OF ENSURING THAT SUCH THINGS WILL CARRY ON HAPPENING. Also, it hardly needs to be added, your example is ridiculous. I don't believe that people plant bombs or otherwise attack innocent people without much more (imagined) provocation than having a row with a neighbour. Look at Breivik for example. He spent nine years planning his attack, wrote and distributed a fascist-like manifesto for all to see, and claimed to have links with the English Defence League and other fascist organisations. In a certain sense therefore he considered himself as not acting alone but under the influence of a wide range of hate literature. Isn't that worth investigating? Or would you regard that as irrelevant to understanding what makes some people commit these crimes?

[scottycelt]

No it doesn't (sigh), but one more time NOT ADDRESSING THE REASONS IS ONE WAY OF ENSURING THAT SUCH THINGS WILL CARRY ON HAPPENING. Also, it hardly needs to be added, your example is ridiculous. I don't believe that people plant bombs or otherwise attack innocent people without much more (imagined) provocation than having a row with a neighbour. Look at Breivik for example. He spent nine years planning his attack, wrote and distributed a fascist-like manifesto for all to see, and claimed to have links with the English Defence League and other fascist organisations. In a certain sense therefore he considered himself as not acting alone but under the influence of a wide range of hate literature. Isn't that worth investigating? Or would you regard that as irrelevant to understanding what makes some people commit these crimes?

No need to shout, it doesn't make your case any more convincing.

Breivik was certainly guilty of appalling savagery. Most people in life come across similar hate literature but choose not to be influenced by it. Breivik deliberately and calculatingly chose to be an extreme racist and a mass-murdering savage. His decision, nobody or nothing else is to blame.

[Anna]

It is. But my point, once more, was that defining people as "good" or "evil" (or "savages") might well be a hindrance to that aim. As we know from countless reports, someone who plants a bomb might be my or your next-door neighbour who would never be suspected of being a "savage" until the act is carried out. Was this person a "savage" all along? or was there something that pushed them into it?

We are all born as innocent babes, not born with evil in us. That evil is nurtured, whether by religion, by brain-washing, parents, parenting, being born in a yoke of poverty. But, someone, something, puts that seed into our head, that it's alright to kill and maim to get what we want without one thought about anyone else. as long as we get our way.

I think, when push comes to shove, it's human nature to be cruel. avaricous, greedy and downright nasty. We may all wish to live in Elysian Fields but ....... it's too difficult.