Boston Marathon: Is terrorism ever justified?

[teamsaint]

The police are obviously privy to intelligence details and threat level analysis about which the public are, probably thankfully, mostly kept in the dark.

I am sure that decisions regarding the arming of police officers are taken with all that information in mind. It does not generate a higher level of fear in me. Events like the Boston bombing terrify me far more than the sight of an armed policeman. It is easy to get complacent these days.We as members of the public can have that luxury; the police, intelligence and security services can not.

The question was how routinely arming the police stops terrorist activity, and doesn't just annoy or intimidate the public.

There are a huge number of things we ought to be worried about above the terror threat. Tiny children being left at school from 7.30 am till 6.00 pm for instance. Arms sales to places like Bahrain. Chemically contaminated horsemeat. Finding out who it is we are sending arms to in Syria.
Stuff like that. Things that affect millions of people every day.

[amateur51]

The police are obviously privy to intelligence details and threat level analysis about which the public are, probably thankfully, mostly kept in the dark.

I am sure that decisions regarding the arming of police officers are taken with all that information in mind. It does not generate a higher level of fear in me. Events like the Boston bombing terrify me far more than the sight of an armed policeman. It is easy to get complacent these days.We as members of the public can have that luxury; the police, intelligence and security services can not.

I don't think that the family and friends of Jean Charles de Menezes and several other people who have been shot 'accidentally' by armed Metropolitan police officers can take much comfort from your point of view, Mr Pee - complacent indeed.

[Richard Barrett]

Arms sales to places like Bahrain. Chemically contaminated horsemeat. Finding out who it is we are sending arms to in Syria. Stuff like that. Things that affect millions of people every day.

Yes. I can't say I'm at all thankful about being "kept in the dark" about such things. The Metropolitan Police were "obviously privy to intelligence details and threat level analysis" concerning Menezes, but it was all wrong; recently there was also the case of Ian Tomlinson. In both of these cases the police did their best to prevent the truth coming to light. Secrecy and unaccountability go hand in hand.

And, returning to the USA, President Obama commented: "Anytime bombs are used to target innocent civilians, it is an act of terror." A journalist asked a White House press secretary whether this included the US airstrike that killed ten children in Afghanistan on April 7 and received this "answer":

Well, I would have to know more about the incident and then obviously the Department of Defense would have answers to your questions on this matter. We have more than 60,000 U.S. troops involved in a war in Afghanistan, a war that began when the United States was attacked, in an attack that was organized on the soil of Afghanistan by al Qaeda, by Osama bin laden and others and more than 3,000 people were killed in that attack. And it has been the President’s objective once he took office to make clear what our goals are in Afghanistan and that is to disrupt, dismantle and ultimately defeat al Qaeda. And with that as our objective to provide enough assistance to Afghan National Security Forces and the Afghan government to allow them to take over security for themselves. And that process is underway and the United States has withdrawn a substantial number of troops and we are in the process of drowning down further as we hand over security lead to Afghan forces. And it is certainly the case that I refer you to the defense department for details that we take great care in the prosecution of this war and we are very mindful of what our objectives are.

In other words, as far as the US government is concerned, terrorism is justified when "we" are doing it.

[Mr Pee]

The question was how routinely arming the police stops terrorist activity, and doesn't just annoy or intimidate the public.

There are a huge number of things we ought to be worried about above the terror threat. Tiny children being left at school from 7.30 am till 6.00 pm for instance. Arms sales to places like Bahrain. Chemically contaminated horsemeat. Finding out who it is we are sending arms to in Syria.
Stuff like that. Things that affect millions of people every day.

The threat of terrorism affects millions of people every day, whether they are boarding a flight, attending a major event, or watching a marathon. Just because there are other things we should be concerned about doesn't mean we should act as though the threat does not exist.

And the Menezes incident is trotted out every time the question of armed police is raised. It was a tragic mistake, but we all make mistakes, don't we? In our case it might be just playing a wrong note. Just be grateful that in that split second when a decision has to be made, that the consequences are not so severe.

[teamsaint]

The threat of terrorism affects millions of people every day, whether they are boarding a flight, attending a major event, or watching a marathon. Just because there are other things we should be concerned about doesn't mean we should act as though the threat does not exist.

And the Menezes incident is trotted out every time the question of armed police is raised. It was a tragic mistake, but we all make mistakes, don't we? In our case it might be just playing a wrong note. Just be grateful that in that split second when a decision has to be made, that the consequences are not so severe.

I am told there is a terror threat, on endless tape loop announcements every time I go to Grateley station. But I don't think the "Terrorists" are targeting it.

There is a good deal more government induced fear of threat than actual threat.

I would suggest having a look around, and trying to spot the real threats to our (and other peoples) safety.

[Richard Barrett]

The threat of terrorism affects millions of people every day

That is true, especially if they live somewhere like Afghanistan.

[Boilk]

That is true, especially if they live somewhere like Afghanistan.

...or anywhere where there is a strong American military presence.

Laws have already been passed in Washington whereby drones can now fly above US cities, just to keep an eye on criminals you understand. Before long we will hear about the first drone fatalities on US soil. And I'll bet innocent civilians will be involved, but as Mr Pee so eloquently puts it ...

... we all make mistakes, don't we?

... :steam:

[teamsaint]

And the first British drone pilots have their "Wings".
its a point well made, Boilk, we should be very worried about drones.

[amateur51]

The threat of terrorism affects millions of people every day, whether they are boarding a flight, attending a major event, or watching a marathon. Just because there are other things we should be concerned about doesn't mean we should act as though the threat does not exist.

And the Menezes incident is trotted out every time the question of armed police is raised. It was a tragic mistake, but we all make mistakes, don't we? In our case it might be just playing a wrong note. Just be grateful that in that split second when a decision has to be made, that the consequences are not so severe.

And apologists for state murder always trot out the 'tragic mistake' line. I look forward to seeing some of them say this to the families of De Menezes and Ian Tomlinson face-to-face one days. And as far as I know we still haven't got to the bottom of Mark Duggan's murder by armed police officers, that led to the August riots.

All these 'tragic mistakes' took place in London of course, not in the leafy shires where those of a 'tragic mistake' disposition live.

[amateur51]

...or anywhere where there is a strong American military presence.

Laws have already been passed in Washington whereby drones can now fly above US cities, just to keep an eye on criminals you understand. Before long we will hear about the first drone fatalities on US soil. And I'll bet innocent civilians will be involved, but as Mr Pee so eloquently puts it ...


... :steam:

I'm very worried by drones, in Islamabad, in Kabul, in London.

[Richard Barrett]

I realise this is a bit offtopic, but since arming the police in the UK often comes up when terrorism is being discussed: in 2011, one person (Mark Duggan) was shot dead by police in the UK; in 2012, 583 people were shot dead by police in the USA.

[amateur51]

I realise this is a bit offtopic, but since arming the police in the UK often comes up when terrorism is being discussed: in 2011, one person (Mark Duggan) was shot dead by police in the UK; in 2012, 583 people were shot dead by police in the USA.

It would be interesting to know how many rounds were fired by the Met in that year too, RB

[Bryn]

I realise this is a bit offtopic, but since arming the police in the UK often comes up when terrorism is being discussed: in 2011, one person (Mark Duggan) was shot dead by police in the UK; in 2012, 583 people were shot dead by police in the USA.

Some interesting related figures here.

[Pabmusic]

Of course we don't. However, those responsible for police turning into soldiers are the terrorists...

Hmm. Those responsible for turning police into soldiers are senior police and politicians. It was their decisions and policies that caused it. No doubt it was understandable - and 'correct' - given the emergence of terrorists and other armed criminals with access to fairly sophisticated weapons and backup.

But when we blame changes such as these on something other than the immediate cause, we increase the latitude we allow the authorities in the case of (say) terrorism. They can't do anything else, can they? - they're only responding to a threat, after all. And we accept it. This is not, in general, a 'good thing'. Our political servants should act with the greatest circumspection; we have a 'free' society (now there's a topic :erm:) and we should hold them to account for every action that threatens our freedom.

[Mr Pee]

I am told there is a terror threat, on endless tape loop announcements every time I go to Grateley station. But I don't think the "Terrorists" are targeting it.

There is a good deal more government induced fear of threat than actual threat.

And I am sure most of those who attended the Boston Marathon did not expect it to be targeted either; or those who were in the Central London night club a year or two ago that was so nearly blown sky-high; or the Madrid commuters, many of whom may have boarded their train at the quiet Spanish equivalent of Grateley. The whole raison d'etre of terrorists is to strike where security is lightest and therefore where people least expect an attack. Even if Grateley station is not a target, a packed commuter train heading from Hampshire to Waterloo station might well be.

You might wish those pesky announcements were not made; but if as a result of them, one passenger spots something suspicious and by so doing saves your complacent self from being blown to pieces, then I reckon it is a minor inconvenience worth putting up with.

And as far as the level of threat goes, if you have access to the current intelligence situation relating to ongoing terror activity, then feel free to share it with us.