Marriage

[ahinton]

I should stay out of these debates...

No, I am not homophobic, and forgive my flippancy. But I think we need to expand the language, rather than converge and re-use words.

In the same way I wish that the term "partner" would not be used for social union. Surely another term could be found? It once caused considerable confusion when I introduced one of my business partners to somebody... :blush: :laugh:

It can get quite tricky when there are two people who live together without being married of whom one works for John Lewis and the other for Waitrose...

But these issues are indeed just about language and its use; of course new terms have to be used for new situations!

[Dave2002]

... and I know and fully accept that I have more right to dictate or allow to be dictated to homosexuals how they should behave and feel about partners, sexual and otherwise than they have to dictate to me ...

I think this might have been intended to be:

... and I know and fully accept that I have no more right to dictate or allow myself to be dictated to by homosexuals how they should behave and feel about partners, sexual and otherwise than they have to dictate to me ...

I hope I've understood the underlying meaning, and that that was indeed what was meant.

[scottycelt]

These homophobes are SO inventive in their variations...

OR you're not homophobic at all, just misled by language...

But you love Bruckner, so there's hope of Redemption...

You want a lesbian love-manual? Here? As proof of...?

But we both love Bruckner! LOVE is all we need...

As you opened your ears to Bruckner, open your heart to all manwomankind...

What a wonderful idea, Jayne!

If lesbians also open their hearts to all manwomankind maybe they could drop their sexism and heterophobia and allow a change of the definition of 'lesbian' to include heterosexual males as well?

Then we can all listen to the Te Deum together whilst thumbing-through our lesbian love-manuals ... ? :smooch:

[doversoul1]

But these issues are indeedjust about language and its use; of course new terms have to be used for new situations!

It must be a lot to do with the use of language. Traditionally, marriage was, and still is in many cultures, a system to set up a household where the next generation is to be produced. It wasn’t/isn’t primarily about relationship. Within this definition, if two people of the same sex live together because they want to so does not count as marriage.

But I am with Flay #13.

[ahinton]

I think this might have been intended to be:

I hope I've understood the underlying meaning, and that that was indeed what was meant.

Partly, yes; "no" was indeed missing, but the passage should have read (and indeed does so now that I' ve corrected it)
"I know and fully accept that I have no more right to dictate to - or endorse anyone else's dictation to - homosexuals as to how they should behave and feel about partners, sexual and otherwise than they have to dictate to me (which in my experience they have never done) about the same".

Thanks for the prompt; sorry for the confusion!

[ahinton]

If lesbians also open their hearts to all manwomankind maybe they could drop their sexism and heterophobia and allow a change of the definition of 'lesbian' to include heterosexual males as well?

You sound (though correct me if I'm wrong) that's you've encountered few if any homosexuals, male or female, who are other than "sexist" and "heterophobic"; I am sad for you and can only conclude that our respective experiences therefore seem to be in inverse proportion to one another!

Then we can all listen to the Te Deum together whilst thumbing-through our lesbian love-manuals ... ? :smooch:

Make it the Eighth Symphony; you'll learn more that way...

On another aspect of the subject, I do begin to wonder if Mr Pee believes that a marriage exists only if it its wedding ceremony has been conducted in a C of E Church, that its partners are of the opposite sex and have never previously been married (except where one or both have previously been widowed) and that it is for the sole or principal purpose of giving birth to children (so no celibates allowed). Perhaps I'm wrong, but I await evidence to disabuse me of my assumption...

[Bryn]

Surely Mr. Pee's minority must be the church-going members of society. Any statisticophile here care to offer the relative percentages for homosexuals and church-goers in the U.K. these days?

[ahinton]

Surely Mr. Pee's minority must be the church-going members of society.

Not quite, methinks; a minority - or at least not a large majority - among Church-going members of society, perhaps. But these attempts at categorisation that seek to over-simplify by pigeon-holing serve only to could the issues; I know Church-going homosexuals of both sexes and the Church only means "the Church of England" if someone wants to make it do so for the purpose of trying to justify certain arguments. I think that one would find a good deal less people in favour of homosexual marriage among those who attend mosques regularly, but that surely tells us more about the practice of Islam in Britain today than it tells us about the subject per se, doesn't it? Anyway, we should wait for Mr Pee to tell us what he thinks.

[scottycelt]

You sound (though correct me if I'm wrong) that's you've encountered few if any homosexuals, male or female, who are other than "sexist" and "heterophobic"; I am sad for you and can only conclude that our respective experiences therefore seem to be in inverse proportion to one another!


Make it the Eighth Symphony; you'll learn more that way...

You are absolutely wrong, ahinton!

In the course of my working-life I had the pleasure of many friendships with colleagues whom I was told were homosexual (we never discussed our personal 'sexual orientation', that was considered a very private matter). The ones I knew all had a rich sense of humour and we had some great laughs, believe me.

So no need to feel sad for me, quite the contrary, and I, in turn, wouldn't wish to appear patronising by expressing any particular sadness for you!

Much more importantly I'm not really that fussed which Bruckner symphony I hear. The wisest comment I ever heard from a music-critic was 'what you consider to be the best Bruckner symphony always seems to be the one you've just listened to ...'

That has been my own happy and wonderful experience, ahinton!

[amateur51]

After witnessing the fall-out from the Huhne/Pryce marriage, I cannot imagine why anybody, whatever their sexual persuasion, would wish to follow in their footsteps!!

Seriously, though, I am of the view that this vote re-defines marriage to suit a vocal minority. The whole thing is rendered somewhat meaningless anyway since the Churches are exempt.

And of course none of this was mentioned in the Conservative manifesto. It is a desperate attempt by Cameron to shake off his Bullingdon club image in the hope that it will make the Conservative party more appealing to the Gay community, and by extension the Guardian reading chattering classes. It is little more than political opportunism, and all it has done is split the Conservative party down the middle over a matter that matters not a jot to the vast majority of voters, most of whom have far more important things to worry about than gay "marriage".

You have no lesbian or gay relatives or friends, I take it Mr Pee? :erm:

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In the same way I wish that the term "partner" would not be used for social union. Surely another term could be found? It once caused considerable confusion when I introduced one of my business partners to somebody... :blush: :laugh:

I once suggested "consort" to my considerably better half: such a lovely word, I thought! She eventually started speaking to me again. :sadface:

[amateur51]

The thrice-married MP Roger Gale agrees with you.

He said so in parliament.

I do wonder what he calls his non life-long sex-satisfying relationships though?

He was almost incandescent last night - where was St John's ambulance? :biggrin:

[amateur51]

But that does rather suggest that you do see a difference between a homosexual relationship and a heterosexual one? That's the bit I don't follow. In every way they are the same. I imagine a lot of straight people would be surprised by what does or does not go on in other straight couples' bedrooms so why get fixated on consumation, procreation or the need to know that it's military medium once a fortnight with the occasional rumpy on birthdays or after too much wine?

If it's a loving commitment between two people then it's a loving commitment between two people.

You've made me laugh and then smile, gingerjon - many thanks :ok::bubbly::biggrin:

[Mr Pee]

You have no lesbian or gay relatives or friends, I take it Mr Pee? :erm:

I have plenty of gay friends. I do work in Theatre you know!!

The point about the C of E being exempt from this legislation is that it means this is equality with a very small e, because the rights of gay couples to get married are not the same as heterosexual couples, who can choose a Church wedding if they so wish. So what is the point of this bill? If it's about equality, then it has failed. The difference between a Civil Partnership and a marriage carried out in a registry office or other licensed establishment is really nothing more than semantics.

[amateur51]

I have plenty of gay friends. I do work in Theatre you know!!

The point about the C of E being exempt from this legislation is that it means this is equality with a very small e, because the rights of gay couples to get married are not the same as heterosexual couples, who can choose a Church wedding if they so wish. So what is the point of this bill? If it's about equality, then it has failed. The difference between a Civil Partnership and a marriage carried out in a registry office or other licensed establishment is really nothing more than semantics.

The Church of England ceased to be relevant to the lives of most citizens of this country many years ago entirely as a result of its own actions.

There are plenty of unpleasant people in the theatre too, as in most walks of life, Mr Pee :winkeye: