Plebs 0 Toffs 1?

[Guest]

Well, it would appear Mr Mitchell didn't even use the word Pleb, as he's claimed all along . . .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/16/police-officer-arrested-plebgate-row

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andrew-mitchell-hits-back-over-plebgate-row-8421702.html

It seems the leak came from a policeman who wasn't even in Downing Street at the time!

Makes my post #27 in the previous thread seem oh so apposite:

Now that Mitchell's gone . . .

There's been much talk of the seriousness of Mitchell's offence - if that had been a provincial high-street he'd have been arrested - and so forth, so my first question about all this would be:
Why did the police not arrest and charge Mitchell on the night of the offence?

If it was the serious offence that people speak of, then that would have seemed the most appropriate thing for the police to have done. But they didn't. Why not? I think the reason they didn't arrest and charge him was that if taken to court he could quite easily have claimed provocation. There was no hint of any prior policy over the use of the gates, nor any announcement of a new policy, nor any hint of an imminent security threat, rather, the 'policy' was simply made up on the spot to wind him up.

_______

Now it gets ugly. Given that the police certainly didn't charge him on the night, shouldn't that have been the end of the matter? How did it enter the public domain? There have been no members of the public offerred as witnesses, nor members of the press, so this can only have been leaked by the police. It was the police that briefed the press against Mitchell. I very much doubt that's a thing the police can do legally - although, hang on, didn't they do something similar at Hillsborough?
So my next question is: who leaked the information about the incident to the press?

_______

And next: The Sun (last night's Newsnight) indicated that they had three copies of police log-books (!!!) and they all, broadly, lined up! Surprise! And strangely, these were all leaked to the Sun at about the same time. So three policemen independently decided they'd all go to the same newspaper at about the same time!
Did they dream this action up amongst themselves, or were they managed by a higher police authority?

Who managed the leak of the affair into the public domain?

_______

This is far more serious than the transgretion of Mitchell. There's a danger, as I see it, of us getting to a position where people are tried and convicted outside the law by the police and the media.

[scottycelt]

This affair was all about politics and little else. Mitchell admitted he lost his temper on the night and apologised and that should have been the end of the matter. 'Plebs' was always a most unlikely term of 'abuse' these days, and that in itself should have raised suspicion of its alleged use. The Police Federation got its way in the end with Mitchell's resignation, which appeared to be its main goal.

In any case, if the word 'pleb' is now considered unacceptable so surely should the equally silly 'toff', widely used by politicians on the Left and even parts of the press and media ?

It works both ways when it comes to petty class sniffiness. Inverted snobs are no different from snobs.

Well, it would appear Mr Mitchell didn't even use the word Pleb, as he's claimed all along . . .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/16/police-officer-arrested-plebgate-row

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andrew-mitchell-hits-back-over-plebgate-row-8421702.html

It seems the leak came from a policeman who wasn't even in Downing Street at the time!

Makes my post #27 in the previous thread seem oh so apposite:

[amateur51]

This affair was all about politics and little else. Mitchell admitted he lost his temper on the night and apologised and that should have been the end of the matter. 'Plebs' was always a most unlikely term of 'abuse' these days, and that in itself should have raised suspicion of its alleged use. The Police Federation got its way in the end with Mitchell's resignation, which appeared to be its main goal.

In any case, if the word 'pleb' is now considered unacceptable so surely should the equally silly 'toff', widely used by politicians on the Left and even parts of the press and media ?

It works both ways when it comes to petty class sniffiness. Inverted snobs are no different from snobs.

Can we give the [generic] left a rest too please, scotty? Lazy stuff :erm:

[MrGongGong]

Can we give the [generic] left a rest too please, scotty? Lazy stuff :erm:

Indeed and the "reception class logic" maybe ?

Inverted snobs are no different from snobs

a few days ago you were telling me that everything has an opposite ............
and now you are implying that an inversion is the same as the thing which is inverted
try telling that to Schoenberg , Berg or Webern :yikes:

[anotherbob]

if the word 'pleb' is now considered unacceptable so surely should the equally silly 'toff',

Definitely NOT :grr:

Our language would be poorer for their absence. No other words convey the same meanings with quite the same degree of contempt and as a member of the middle class I can legitimately use them both.

[scottycelt]

Indeed and the "reception class logic" maybe ? ...a few days ago you were telling me that everything has an opposite ............

Well, if either of us were parachuted onto the North Pole or South Pole, I strongly suspect the lack of warmth experienced would be much the same ... :whistle:

[scottycelt]

Definitely NOT :grr:

Our language would be poorer for their absence. No other words convey the same meanings with quite the same degree of contempt and as a member of the middle class I can legitimately use them both.

So you are a middle-class snob/inverted snob ... ? :winkeye:

[ahinton]

As I stated ages ago on the other thread about this, Mitchell had clearly been misheard and what he'd actually shouted was "Cleggs".

I see no more reason to encourage the removal from common parlance of the words "plebs" and "toffs" than I do of similar treatment of "right" and "left", except to the extent that the latter should be used with appropriately greater caution these days when referring to matters party politic, since the divisions between the parties are far less - and far less clear and obvious - than they were pre-Thatcher.

[ahinton]

So you are a middle-class snob/inverted snob ... ? :winkeye:

I presume that what you are seeking to convey here is that snobs and inverted snobs are the obverse and reverse of the same coin - in other words, the one is an inversion of the other.

[Bryn]

Definitely NOT :grr:

Our language would be poorer for their absence. No other words convey the same meanings with quite the same degree of contempt and as a member of the middle class I can legitimately use them both.

Well I most definitely fall within the socioeconomic stratum that one might call 'the working class', but sometimes use the term "pleb" to describe those in 'higher' socioeconomic strata who lack proper cultural discrimination (you know, middle-class folk who watch 'soaps' and the like, and who, if they would recognise or even have heard K297b, think it was written with a concertante clarinet part while Mozart was in Paris in 1778). However, the arrest of this off-duty plod does not indicate that the words "pleb" and/or "moran"[sic] were not used by the errant Mitchell. All it shows is that the police officer held to have leaked some of the content of the notebooks of those officers directly involved in the confrontation has been putatively identified.

[ahinton]

Well, if either of us were parachuted onto the North Pole or South Pole, I strongly suspect the lack of warmth experienced would be much the same ... :whistle:

Were this indeed to happen to either of you, I suspect that you'd each possibly freeze to death before experiencing such a lack of warmth, although I accept that this is hardly the point here...

[amateur51]

As I stated ages ago on the other thread about this, Mitchell had clearly been misheard and what he'd actually shouted was "Cleggs".

I see no more reason to encourage the removal from common parlance of the words "plebs" and "toffs" than I do of similar treatment of "right" and "left", except to the extent that the latter should be used with appropriately greater caution these days when referring to matters party politic, since the divisions between the parties are far less - and far less clear and obvious - than they were pre-Thatcher.

In scotty's and Simon's case, "the left" is used as a sneery catch-all, hence my plea - they don't think, they just reach for it :sadface:

[scottycelt]

Can we give the [generic] left a rest too please, scotty? Lazy stuff :erm:

Which word or phrase would you prefer me to work hard at by using instead, amsey? ... 'opposite of right', something like that, maybe?

You see, some things do have opposites! :cool:

[amateur51]

Which word or phrase would you prefer me to work hard at by using instead, amsey? ... 'opposite of right', something like that, maybe?

You see, some things do have opposites! :cool:

I'm not objecting to "left" you great oatcake. I'm objecting to "the left" which has moved, always will move, depending on where the centre is and as such is a largely redundant term unless historically defined. "The left" as you use it now - is it a sneer at the left of Wilson and Brown; or of Blair and Brown?

[anotherbob]

Well I most definitely fall within the socioeconomic stratum that one might call 'the working class', but sometimes use the term "pleb" to describe those in 'higher' socioeconomic strata who lack proper cultural discrimination (you know, middle-class folk who watch 'soaps' and the like,

It seems the word is infinitely adaptable, another arguement for its retention.

.... and who, if they would recognise or even have heard K297b

a particularly picturesque local bus-route.