Plebs 0 Toffs 1?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

er well i apologise for my post about a toff own goal, clearly the ref played it in ...

[scottycelt]

...What do you mean by this and what do you assume that am51 means by it?

1) Literal (meaning)
2) Never make assumptions and I strongly suspect that even am51 doesn't know what am51 really means, anyway ?

Anyway, to return (what a relief!) to the topic, isn't it now high time for a plebiscite?

That is not the topic, ahinton, and, in any case, it would be vile discrimination against toffs. As a proud member of the classless centre, it is also something I could not possibly support or condone.

[ahinton]

1) Literal (meaning)
2) Never make assumptions and I strongly suspect that even am51 doesn't know what am51 really means, anyway ?

That tells us nothing other than that you are prepared to harbour strong suspicions even when your knowledge might not necessarily justify your doing so.

That is not the topic, ahinton, and, in any case, it would be vile discrimination against toffs. As a proud member of the classless centre, it is also something I could not possibly support or condone.

What is not the topic? Unless my ability to read English words and Arabic numerals has been deceiving me, I've been labouring under the impression that is was about Plebs and Toffs. I did not in any case specify on what I questioned the possibility of a plebiscite. Your pride, your membership of what you call the classless centre and what you might or might not support or condone is, of course, your personal prerogative but, since no one appears directly to be advocating a "vile discrimination against toffs" here and the thread topic as presented does not suggest one, you do seem to have wandered somewhat from that topic...

[amateur51]

1) Literal (meaning)
2) Never make assumptions and I strongly suspect that even am51 doesn't know what am51 really means, anyway ?
.

I could not have been clearer about what I mean than in msg #24 et seq, scotty.:huh:

Haud yer wriggling, man! :whistle::biggrin:

[ahinton]

I could not have been clearer about what I mean than in msg #24 et seq, scotty

Indeed - and it's not as though there's any obvious language problem, given that this particular Scot understood it easily. I wouldn't worry about it!

[Flosshilde]

1) As a proud member of the classless centre, it is also something I could not possibly support or condone.

Surely the centre, in class terms, isn't classless, but middle class?

[amateur51]

Indeed- and it's not as though there's any obvious language problem, given that this particular Scot understood it easily. I wouldn't worry about it!

:hug:

[vinteuil]

Surely the centre, in class terms, isn't classless, but middle class?

... I always think that Arnold's tripartite division of the English class system ( Barbarians - Philistines - the Populace ) is much more instructive than the Toff/Plebs confrontation, in terms of the culture of each. And of course Arnold ["Culture & Anarchy"] is much more sympathetic to the plight of the Populace ("the Plebs"), who he sees as being badly served by the greed of the middle classes (Philistines) and the unthinkingness of the aristocracy (Barbarians)...

[ahinton]

Surely the centre, in class terms, isn't classless, but middle class?

I didn't like to say anything but that thought had also occurred to me; the only way that it seems to me that it could possibly be classless is if the left and right are also classless.

Discuss.

NOT! PLEASE!

[Flosshilde]

I expect that Scotty would argue that 'centre' and 'middle' weren't the same - but to do so he'd have to accept the concept of 'context', which he seems unwilling to do. (should that be 'so to do'? :erm:)

[ahinton]

... I always think that Arnold's tripartite division of the English class system ( Barbarians - Philistines - the Populace ) is much more instructive than the Toff/Plebs confrontation, in terms of the culture of each. And of course Arnold ["Culture & Anarchy"] is much more sympathetic to the plight of the Populace ("the Plebs"), who he sees as being badly served by the greed of the middle classes (Philistines) and the unthinkingness of the aristocracy (Barbarians)...

Do you mean Schönberg or Malcolm? Oh, you mean Matthew?! Sorry - I must try not to jump to conclusions base upon the assumption that this is principally a music-oriented forum! That said, it would surely be somewhat foolhardy to seek to base contemporary value judgements on the division of "the English class system" solely upon a literary source that is 143 years old? I cannot imagine that Arnold would recognise much of modern English society as in any obvious way reflective of how he perceived mid-Victorian ditto.

[ahinton]

I expect that Scotty would argue that 'centre' and 'middle' weren't the same

I think it wiser to wait until scotty confirms or denies any such thing before voicing expectations as to what he might argue.

but to do so he'd have to accept the concept of 'context', which he seems unwilling to do. (should that be 'so to do'? :erm:)

In Gælic, perhaps; I don't know but, in the present context (which at least one Scot is willing to accept!), if "centre" and "middle" are indeed deemed to be different, it presumably follows that "upper" and "working" are likewise different to "right" and "left".

I did urge that this not be discussed, did I not?(!)...

[Thropplenoggin]

... I always think that Arnold's tripartite division of the English class system ( Barbarians - Philistines - the Populace ) is much more instructive than the Toff/Plebs confrontation, in terms of the culture of each. And of course Arnold ["Culture & Anarchy"] is much more sympathetic to the plight of the Populace ("the Plebs"), who he sees as being badly served by the greed of the middle classes (Philistines) and the unthinkingness of the aristocracy (Barbarians)...

Très bien dit. :bubbly: Sadly, such wit and culture will mean that less able members will struggle to keep up, even though this thread is in the non-musical 'Platform 3' - "the place to talk about anything". :winkeye:

[handsomefortune]

he'd have to accept the concept of 'context', which he seems unwilling to do.

but compensates by supplying endless opposites instead? pairs next then presumably!

followed by a game of snap! :cracker:

[scottycelt]

Surely the centre, in class terms, isn't classless, but middle class?

Ah ... Flossie's finally arrived :ok:... and the simple answer to your question is 'no' ... people from any background can and do hold 'centrist' views!

Again there appears to be widespread confusion among a tiny band of exceedingly hyperactive members as to what they think was posted and the actual contents of the post concerned.

With my usual forum modesty it was I who claimed to be a proud member of the 'Classless Centre' which in itself might suggest there may well be a 'Class Centre' for those 'centrists' who think that 'class' remains important. I deliberately included the ambiguous adjective to invite welcome forum accord but all it seems to have done is sow yet more seeds of confusion among those to whom it was mainly directed. Predictably, I suppose, so I must accept all of the blame for that.

I hereby unreservedly apologise to this tiny, confused band for a gross and unforgivable error of forum judgement ... :blush: