The Police Slaughter of Protesting Mining Workers in Post-Apartheid South Africa.

[Flosshilde]

it must be a long game, is the football still on, or what?

Perhaps they went into extra time, with penalties. Perhaps someone was diving? (no idea what that means, btw, but I think Scottycelt knows about ducking & diving :winkeye:)

[french frank]

I'm surprised that you appear to have now rather lazily swallowed the rather personal and negative 'Flossie & Co' line of 'argument'.

Interesting rhetorical devices there :smiley:.

This really isn't a line of discourse that I understand. I like people to state their point of view in a way that invites reasoned agreement or disagreement with their opinion. You're like Proust's aunts who exchange cryptic comments between each other and seem under the impression that because they understand each other perfectly their remarks are comprehensible to everyone.

This 'I wonder why it is, mmmm, mmmm? I mean why would that be, I wonder? :whistle::whistle::whistle: ' is something I can't relate to.

[handsomefortune]

proust's aunts, well you know what that means, mmmm don't you! :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

:laugh:

(no wonder scotty celt chose lez dawson to post! he's you know ...nudge nudge whistle gurn too)

[amateur51]

Such a shame that scotty appears to have lost interest in this news item once the stirring failed ... :whistle:

"The death of dozens of miners in a crackdown on industrial action has exposed deep divisions over workers' rights in South Africa, 18 years after the end of apartheid....

For the ANC and for President Jacob Zuma, the killings at Marikana have turned a run-of-the-mill strike-and-wage dispute into a crisis, and the government has responded by announcing a Judicial Commission of Inquiry, looking into the role played by Lonmin,(a British company), the rival unions, police and government departments.

It is a move that has been welcomed by opposition parties, but the violence here has brought local and world attention not just to the miners' pay and living conditions, but to what is being seen as a growing gulf separating the government from ordinary people who are asking for more jobs and better services.

After 18 years in power, the ANC faces growing criticism and not just from militant groups. The man who has achieved the greatest publicity through the Marikana tragedy is of course Julius Malema, the firebrand former leader of the ANC Youth League, now expelled from the party because of his views. He has demanded that President Zuma, who visited Marikana this week, should resign over the killings, and that all the mines should be nationalised"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19366562

[scottycelt]

Such a shame that scotty appears to have lost interest in this news item once the stirring failed ... :whistle:

"The death of dozens of miners in a crackdown on industrial action has exposed deep divisions over workers' rights in South Africa, 18 years after the end of apartheid....

For the ANC and for President Jacob Zuma, the killings at Marikana have turned a run-of-the-mill strike-and-wage dispute into a crisis, and the government has responded by announcing a Judicial Commission of Inquiry, looking into the role played by Lonmin,(a British company), the rival unions, police and government departments.

It is a move that has been welcomed by opposition parties, but the violence here has brought local and world attention not just to the miners' pay and living conditions, but to what is being seen as a growing gulf separating the government from ordinary people who are asking for more jobs and better services.

After 18 years in power, the ANC faces growing criticism and not just from militant groups. The man who has achieved the greatest publicity through the Marikana tragedy is of course Julius Malema, the firebrand former leader of the ANC Youth League, now expelled from the party because of his views. He has demanded that President Zuma, who visited Marikana this week, should resign over the killings, and that all the mines should be nationalised"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19366562

Oh, I'm still interested, amsey, though my point continues to be missed (obviously quite deliberately) by your very goodself.

Like you, I have absolutely no idea what the level of criticism of the police action is in South Africa. I suspect it will be quite significant but that has nothing to do with the original point.

The point was the lack of 'liberal criticism of the police action in the UK and the usual references to 'police brutality' that one has come to expect after similar instances in other places throughout the world.

Indeed, I'd be prepared to place a very large wager that if a similar incident had occurred in say the Gaza Strip by Israeli forces or, even better (if somewhat unlikely), Vatican City, this forum would have been awash with multiple-expressed outrage eagerly encouraged and 'stirred' by members like your same very goodself!

That was the point, amsey ... nothing more or less ... and you still continue to dodge it!

[amateur51]

Oh, I'm still interested, amsey, though my point continues to be missed (obviously quite deliberately) by your very goodself.

Like you, I have absolutely no idea what the level of criticism of the police action is in South Africa. I suspect it will be quite significant but that has nothing to do with the original point.

The point was the lack of 'liberal criticism of the police action in the UK and the usual references to 'police brutality' that one has come to expect after similar instances in other places throughout the world.

Indeed, I'd be prepared to place a very large wager that if a similar incident had occurred in say the Gaza Strip by Israeli forces or, even better (if somewhat unlikely), Vatican City, this forum would have been awash with multiple-expressed outrage eagerly encouraged and 'stirred' by members like your same very goodself!

That was the point, amsey ... nothing more or less ... and you still continue to dodge it!

Well this continued thread shows you're wrong, doesn't it, scotty :smiley:

[scottycelt]

Well this continued thread shows you're wrong, doesn't it, scotty :smiley:

I'm listening to a truly towering performance of Bruckner 9 by Haitink/VPO at the RAH, amsey ... frankly, who here really cares which of us is right or wrong? :winkeye:

[french frank]

Indeed, I'd be prepared to place a very large wager that if a similar incident had occurred in say the Gaza Strip by Israeli forces [...] this forum would have been awash with multiple-expressed outrage

I wouldn't have said that such an incident as that would have been in any way comparable to the South African one, not least because it would be rekindling an already inflammatory situation, and one in which there would be little expectation that there would ever be any justice for the Palestinians.

On a much lesser scale, it would apply if a Met officer was involved in a fatal incident - not least because the interest is home-based, and it wouldn't be the first incident of its kind. We want to know that it's going to be dealt with properly.

But in general there hasn't been any indignation against the South African police force; there was no certainty that there wouldn't be an investigation. Of course people were horrified by the scale of the tragedy, just as one is horrified to hear of the shooting of a family of British tourists. But it isn't simply the incident itself which arouses outrage - it's all the surrounding circumstances, of justice and injustice, repeated and continuing. And I think that as far as most people outside South Africa at least were concerned, those attendant circumstances were missing.

[scottycelt]

...But in general there hasn't been any indignation against the South African police force; there was no certainty that there wouldn't be an investigation. Of course people were horrified by the scale of the tragedy, just as one is horrified to hear of the shooting of a family of British tourists. But it isn't simply the incident itself which arouses outrage - it's all the surrounding circumstances, of justice and injustice, repeated and continuing. And I think that as far as most people outside South Africa at least were concerned, those attendant circumstances were missing.

The strikers in South Africa obviously feel a sense of continuing injustice whatever 'most people outside S. Africa' believe. I'm not supporting or condemning either them or the police, as like 'most people outside S. Africa' (and no doubt within) I simply do not know all the facts, and it's really none of my business anyway!

I simply highlight the reaction to this case in the UK media and political circles. There has been no lack of reporting the incident, it has rather been the distinct and uncharacteristic lack of the usual knee-jerk 'liberal' condemnation of it that I (and others) find most notable.

That's all ... :smiley:

[amateur51]

The strikers in South Africa obviously feel a sense of continuing injustice whatever 'most people outside S. Africa' believe. I'm not supporting or condemning either them or the police, as like 'most people outside S. Africa' (and no doubt within) I simply do not know all the facts, and it's really none of my business anyway!

I simply highlight the reaction to this case in the UK media and political circles. There has been no lack of reporting the incident, it has rather been the distinct and uncharacteristic lack of the usual knee-jerk 'liberal' condemnation of it that I (and others) find most notable.

That's all ... :smiley:

Ah the revival of Last Word Syndrome :smiley:

[french frank]

Ah the revival of Last Word Syndrome

Heh!

The strikers in South Africa obviously feel a sense of continuing injustice whatever 'most people outside S. Africa' believe.

So, what you're saying, then, is that we should be condemning Lonmin, the employers, and the ANC/government for not succeeding in improving the standard of living of black people?

Or should the outrage be directed solely at the SA police who were involved in the massacre? I think Michael White's piece did actually focus on this: outrage, yes, but who exactly is it to be directed against and, more importantly, why?

Condemning those individuals who ran riot and killed so indiscriminately is on a par with condemning Anders Breivik. Neither condemnation would have anything specifically to do with politics, liberal left or other.

[scottycelt]

Heh!

Yes, ... simply hilarious ... and the usual and highly-original tour-de-force from amsey ... :biggrin:

So, what you're saying, then, is that we should be condemning Lonmin, the employers, and the ANC/government for not succeeding in improving the standard of living of black people?

Or should the outrage be directed solely at the SA police who were involved in the massacre? I think Michael White's piece did actually focus on this: outrage, yes, but who exactly is it to be directed against and, more importantly, why?

Condemning those individuals who ran riot and killed so indiscriminately is on a par with condemning Anders Breivik. Neither condemnation would have anything specifically to do with politics, liberal left or other.

You appear to be now agreeing with Michael White whilst disagreeing with myself. I have always agreed with Michael White on this issue. Indeed, I thanked you for providing the link to Mr White's article which appeared to express much the same opinion as that contained in my original post.

Mr White noted the lack of liberal-left protest over this incident compared to other similar events elsewhere. I simply happen to concur with him.

As I've already explained this has nothing to do with apportioning blame about something I (and you?) know nothing about. I suspect every member on this forum is in a similar position when it comes to the facts.

Putting it slightly less gently for you the only real point here concerns possible political double-standards and its associated humbug. That was (and remains) the only real point that both I and Mr Michael White of The Guardian:blush: were making.

I can't make this only real point any clearer, so it might be kinder to leave it at that ... and the actual last words, as always, to amsey!

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes, ... simply hilarious ... and the usual and highly-original tour-de-force from amsey ... :biggrin:



You appear to be now agreeing with Michael White whilst disagreeing with myself. I have always agreed with Michael White on this issue. Indeed, I thanked you for providing the link to Mr White's article which appeared to express much the same opinion as that contained in my original post.

Mr White noted the lack of liberal-left protest over this incident compared to other similar events elsewhere. I simply happen to concur with him.

As I've already explained this has nothing to do with apportioning blame about something I (and you?) know nothing about. I suspect every member on this forum is in a similar position when it comes to the facts.

Putting it slightly less gently for you the only real point here concerns possible political double-standards and its associated humbug. That was (and remains) the only real point that both I and Mr Michael White of The Guardian:blush: were making.

I can't make this only real point any clearer, so it might be kinder to leave it at that ... and the actual last words, as always, to amsey!

Well one hopes so, because I am still completely baffled. But there are more things in Heaven and on Earth; God moves in mysterious ways, one supposes.

[french frank]

Well, you could make it crystal clear by saying what you think the protest should be focused on. That difficulty was Michael White's point, not yours.

As I've already explained this has nothing to do with apportioning blame

Doesn't a protest imply some sort of responsibility or wrong-doing by someone?

Or are you just jumping about gleefully saying, Yah boo, all you lefty liberals who thought everything in South Africa would be fine as soon as they got rid of apartheid?

[Flosshilde]

Or are you just jumping about gleefully saying, Yah boo, all you lefty liberals who thought everything in South Africa would be fine as soon as they got rid of apartheid?

No, surely not, our Scotty doing that? Perish the thought.