Gareth Williams Inquest

[teamsaint]

Sorry if there is another thread on this that i have missed.........or is it even legal to discuss these things these days?

Anyway, it looks after all that there may have been some irregularities !
All looks too similar to Stephen Milligan's death for my liking.

We live in troubling times.

EDIT : looks like the BBC have made our minds up for us !!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17872671

[mercia]

We live in troubling times.

what aspect of it do you find most troubling ?

[teamsaint]

what aspect of it do you find most troubling ?

What , the times , or this case?
If it is the former, well how long do you have ?

On this case...........hard to know where to start.Incompetence? Murder?Discrediting murder victims?The high number of people in politically sensitive jobs who apparently commit suicide or die in "sex games"?

Are you not troubled by either this case, or the way that our governments behave

[teamsaint]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mi6-dirty-secrets-why-do-sex-games-819152

[handsomefortune]

poor bloke!

i agree that the case seems to remain unsolved teamsaint, so therefore bound to stay on many peoples' minds, be 'troubleing' in this sense.

the landlord that rents to employees working for a secret org is like something from a sci fi, or crime narrative.

why might the landlord be believed precisely? unlike any old landlord, they'd have a vested interest in saying whatever in support of the secret org that provides their tenants and income.

all very odd, and sad. gareth william's family must be extremely devastated.

[Stillhomewardbound]

I'm of the view that most conspiracy theories fail to factor in the very obvious and the mundane ie. Diana's death ... reality of it, rich, arrogant people travelling in fast cars without seat belts. QED.

However, there are two terribly open questions in the Williams case that cannot have an innocent explanation. One, aside from the business of the holdall itself, is the placing of it in a bath. That, it seems to me is entirely with a view to avoiding detection. A move to insure no fluids seep through the floor boards or anything like that, or attract flies, bluebottles etc.

The other one is the failure of a MI6 employee to return from leave apparently not raising so much as an eyebrow among his superiors. An analyst with exposure and access to highly classified data goes missing and not even the smallest alarm bell rings?? Extraordinary.

Personally, I'm seeing here a sex game that has perhaps gone too far, but not necessarily with malicious intent, and there has been a panic to cover up any tracks. His partner, accomplice or faux tormentor also being in the Service and with experience of covert work, or 'dark arts' as the family have asserted.

MI6 meanwhile does itself no favours whatsoever and behaves in an embarrassing fashion for the times we live in. Yes, they'll happily facilitate and expedite the extradition, legal or otherwise, of people to face the criminal scrutiny of other nations, but on the home front they are apparently above such things.

'What a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive'.

[aeolium]

However, there are two terribly open questions in the Williams case that cannot have an innocent explanation. One, aside from the business of the holdall itself, is the placing of it in a bath. That, it seems to me is entirely with a view to avoiding detection. A move to insure no fluids seep through the floor boards or anything like that, or attract flies, bluebottles etc.

The other one is the failure of a MI6 employee to return from leave apparently not raising so much as an eyebrow among his superiors. An analyst with exposure and access to highly classified data goes missing and not even the smallest alarm bell rings?? Extraordinary.

Personally, I'm seeing here a sex game that has perhaps gone too far, but not necessarily with malicious intent, and there has been a panic to cover up any tracks. His partner, accomplice or faux tormentor also being in the Service and with experience of covert work, or 'dark arts' as the family have asserted.

And there's also the fact of the central heating being put on even though it was the middle of August and quite warm - certainly done to speed up the decomposition of the body and conceal the presence of any poisons.

It clearly has to be a killing (whether unintentional or deliberate) done by someone with professional, probably secret service, awareness. It could have been a foreign agent who knew of GW's proclivities and cultivated his acquaintance or, as you say, someone in the Service here. It certainly was amazingly fortunate for the killer that GW's absence at a meeting wasn't rapidly investigated by MI6.

[teamsaint]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mi6-spy-in-a-bag-case-gareth-williams-probably-locked-himself-in-holdall-by-accident-8936843.html

It would be unbelievable, if it wasn't all too believable.

I don't know how some people sleep at night.

[amateur51]

The whole thing stinks to high heaven and no wonder his family will not accept this latest conclusion.

It is in the interests of so many powerful institutions and individuals to silence further discussion and investigation. Even the top copper who has reached this latest conclusion has said that what is proposed, that Williams accidentally killed himself inside a padlocked holdall, is 'theoretically possible".

I do hope that an experienced illusionist attempts to do this trick on television because I don't buy it.

[aeolium]

The whole thing stinks to high heaven and no wonder his family will not accept this latest conclusion.

It is in the interests of so many powerful institutions and individuals to silence further discussion and investigation. Even the top copper who has reached this latest conclusion has said that what is proposed, that Williams accidentally killed himself inside a padlocked holdall, is 'theoretically possible".

I do hope that an experienced illusionist attempts to do this trick on television because I don't buy it.

In fact as part of the inquest there was an attempted simulation by a yoga and escapology expert who failed in a hundred attempts to lock himself inside a holdall of identical dimensions. The coroner ruled out the possibility that Williams had been a lone protagonist in his death; she was "sure that a third party had placed the bag into the bath and on the balance of probabilities locked the bag"; poisons would not have been detected in the body because of the advanced state of decomposition; there were none of Williams' prints on the bath containing the holdall ; and there was no evidence of suicidal tendencies. Yet still the police appear to have concluded that no-one else was involved, that it was probably an accident, and that it was "theoretically possible" for Williams to have locked himself in the holdall.

This Mail report into the inquest last year includes a video of one of the attempts made by an expert to lock himself into a similarly-sized holdall.

[french frank]

This Mail report into the inquest last year includes a video of one of the attempts made by an expert to lock himself into a similarly-sized holdall.

An interesting discrepancy between the two reports: the Indy reports that the coroner's view was that the death was "likely to have been criminally meditated". The Mail reported it as "likely to have been criminally mediated". The difference is significant, since one implies premeditated murder the other that there was some form of criminal activity involved that resulted in death.

[amateur51]

In fact as part of the inquest there was an attempted simulation by a yoga and escapology expert who failed in a hundred attempts to lock himself inside a holdall of identical dimensions. The coroner ruled out the possibility that Williams had been a lone protagonist in his death; she was "sure that a third party had placed the bag into the bath and on the balance of probabilities locked the bag"; poisons would not have been detected in the body because of the advanced state of decomposition; there were none of Williams' prints on the bath containing the holdall ; and there was no evidence of suicidal tendencies. Yet still the police appear to have concluded that no-one else was involved, that it was probably an accident, and that it was "theoretically possible" for Williams to have locked himself in the holdall.

This Mail report into the inquest last year includes a video of one of the attempts made by an expert to lock himself into a similarly-sized holdall.

I can conceive of Williams being able to get inside the bag were he double-jointed for example. However, his being able to lock an external padlock from within the closed bag baffles me.

[teamsaint]

I can conceive of Williams being able to get inside the bag were he double-jointed for example. However, his being able to lock an external padlock from within the closed bag baffles me.

without ever touching the side of the bath. And then locking his flat from the outside, apparently.

[vinteuil]

... but equally, if our Services had wanted to eliminate him, they could easily have found a less baroque method, and one that left absolutely no traces.

I tend to think it was more probably the sad solitary end of a person with strange impulses.

[amateur51]

without ever touching the side of the bath. And then locking his flat from the outside, apparently.

Good points, teams - this latest verdict seems to be just perverse.