We're All In This Together .....

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

always with us eh?

[teamsaint]

uk tax is more regressive than people think it is and certainly far less than it was when i was young and Supermac was PM

it is no wonder that the public have misconceptions about tax.

Nick Robinson's panorama programme a few years ago, was really pretty misleading about the tax burden on the rich.

5. The Rich Pay More Than You Might Think

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15843746

Figures like this

5. The Rich Pay More Than You Might Think

The top 1% of earners - just 300,000 people - pay 27% of all income tax. Of course, many people believe that the rich should pay more, but identifying who's "rich" - and getting them to stump up - is fiendishly difficult for our politicians.

are deeply misleading without at least income figures to compare to.

[amateur51]

Impressive evidence of the negative social effects of Thatcher's policies

https://theconversation.com/thatcherisms-lethal-legacy-and-the-politics-of-reporting-research-23222

IDS might even be envious.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

uk wages slump

in 1978 a Houston taxi driver expletively said to me that if he didn't have a $$$$$$$ dollar he could not $$$$$$$ spend it ... and since all the jobs were being exported &c .... so if he had a dollar to spend it went on exports rather than domestic products ... that still leaves minimum wage and less service sector employment so Aunt Ethel should have no problem finding servants in future eh George?

[Serial_Apologist]

uk wages slump

in 1978 a Houston taxi driver expletively said to me that if he didn't have a $$$$$$$ dollar he could not $$$$$$$ spend it ... and since all the jobs were being exported &c .... so if he had a dollar to spend it went on exports rather than domestic products ... that still leaves minimum wage and less service sector employment so Aunt Ethel should have no problem finding servants in future eh George?

All this goes to prove is that it's profits that make the world go around, not wages.

[aeolium]

I think this article provides a very clear account of why the government historical narrative about the economic crisis ("wasteful and reckless spending by Labour") and its austerity prescription are both wrong and why a different narrative and a different policy are needed. It seems to me also, though Chang does not make the parallel, that a similarly false historical narrative and prescription has been applied by the powers that be in the Eurozone. Sadly, there does not seem to be any major political party anywhere in Europe (Syriza in Greece?) which is offering either an alternative account of how the crisis came about or an alternative programme, one which renounces austerity.

[ahinton]

All this goes to prove is that it's profits that make the world go around, not wages.

Only while it's still "going round" at all...

[Richard Barrett]

Sadly, there does not seem to be any major political party anywhere in Europe (Syriza in Greece?) which is offering either an alternative account of how the crisis came about or an alternative programme, one which renounces austerity.

The facts speak for themselves really, so IMO we can assume that all the major political parties know them as well but choose the fictional narrative, either for their own ideological purposes, or because challenging that hegemony is such an uphill struggle it's overridden by their desire for power. You see this repeated across the board of political issues: a majority of British people support keeping the NHS in public hands and renationalising energy and rail transport (including a majority of Tory voters) and yet none of the major parties in the UK will commit to any of these objectives.

[ahinton]

The facts speak for themselves really, so IMO we can assume that all the major political parties know them as well but choose the fictional narrative, either for their own ideological purposes, or because challenging that hegemony is such an uphill struggle it's overridden by their desire for power. You see this repeated across the board of political issues: a majority of British people support keeping the NHS in public hands and renationalising energy and rail transport (including a majority of Tory voters) and yet none of the major parties in the UK will commit to any of these objectives.

Some surprising statistics in the item to which you link. The ideas that "supporters of nationalising the energy companies include 52% of Conservative voters, and 74% of UKIP voters" and "again, 52% of Conservatives are pro-nationalisation of the rail companies, as are 72% of UKIP supporters" are enough not only to make one question the nature and extent of UKIP's right-wing credentials but also what chance there might be of those 52% of Tory supporters voting Tory next May; after all, if that 52% wants their party to address these issues but said party won't do so, some or all of them might consider casting their votes elsewhere. That said, is the massive endorsement for such renationalistion on the part of UKIP supporters reflected in UKIP policy in such matters? If it isn't, then UKIP might likewise find some of its support dwindling.

I think that one fear among some people is that, if these businesses are renationalised, they will be run far less efficiently. Whilst that's not impossible, I just don't see it as a given and I suspect that fewer people would take that view nowadays anyway; there's no law of nature that says that governments can't run businesses.

The accountability issue remains, whoever runs these businesses, just as is the case with NHS; private businesses are accountable to their shareholders whereas nationalised ones are accountable to theirs, the difference being that the latter have vastly more shareholders because those shareholders are the taxpayers. Provided that those taxpayers can have their say and ensure as a consequence that things are run as they should be, then there oughtn't to be a problem; whether that can happen in practice remains to be seen.

Given how vital a reliable water supply is for everyone, one might well wonder what Tory and UKIP supporters think about the renationalistion of those...

However, if indeed "none of the major parties in the UK will commit to any of these objectives", as you write, it would seem that there's a widening gap between the politicians of all parties and those who vote for them; the problem, however, is that discontented voters seem able only to change their allegiances to other parties that will also not commit, so if indeed the next General Election results in another hung Parliament but one that's far harder to turn into a coalition, I for one will be less than surprised.

[aeolium]

However, if indeed "none of the major parties in the UK will commit to any of these objectives", as you write, it would seem that there's a widening gap between the politicians of all parties and those who vote for them; the problem, however, is that discontented voters seem able only to change their allegiances to other parties that will also not commit, so if indeed the next General Election results in another hung Parliament but one that's far harder to turn into a coalition, I for one will be less than surprised.

That gap has been widening for years if not decades and the result is that support for major political parties has been declining steadily (with a few exceptions) right across Europe. In some cases, as in Greece, a political party which was used to being either in government or the main opposition for a long time has simply seen its support disappear to the point where it is now a fringe party. But in most countries there has been a rise in support for smaller parties, including those from the populist right-wing. This shouldn't really be surprising when the major parties continue to espouse policies which don't have majority support.

[ahinton]

That gap has been widening for years if not decades and the result is that support for major political parties has been declining steadily (with a few exceptions) right across Europe. In some cases, as in Greece, a political party which was used to being either in government or the main opposition for a long time has simply seen its support disappear to the point where it is now a fringe party. But in most countries there has been a rise in support for smaller parties, including those from the populist right-wing. This shouldn't really be surprising when the major parties continue to espouse policies which don't have majority support.

Indeed. I have to confess to remaining surprised at the extent of grass roots Tory (and even more so ditto UKIP) support for a certain amount of renationalistation but it illustrates that gap pretty well, it seems to me. The problem is that if none of the main parties can achieve a majority because support for them has dwindled and none of the smaller ones can do so because their support is insufficient, I can only imagine a climate of ever-increasing political indecision and instability following any attempt at a General Election for the foreseeable future; mind you, at least it will be different and interesting!

[amateur51]

The facts speak for themselves really, so IMO we can assume that all the major political parties know them as well but choose the fictional narrative, either for their own ideological purposes, or because challenging that hegemony is such an uphill struggle it's overridden by their desire for power. You see this repeated across the board of political issues: a majority of British people support keeping the NHS in public hands and renationalising energy and rail transport (including a majority of Tory voters) and yet none of the major parties in the UK will commit to any of these objectives.

Genuine ignorance - what does The Green Party advocate, I wonder.


And UKIP? No, I thought not.

[Richard Barrett]

Genuine ignorance - what does The Green Party advocate, I wonder.

I wasn't counting the Greens as a "major party" (although they're not far behind the Whigs in the polls at the moment)... they support renationalisation of rail transport and of course are opposed to austerity policies but I don't know what their line on energy is apart from investment in moving away from reliance on non-renewable sources.

[amateur51]

I wasn't counting the Greens as a "major party" (although they're not far behind the Whigs in the polls at the moment)... they support renationalisation of rail transport and of course are opposed to austerity policies but I don't know what their line on energy is apart from investment in moving away from reliance on non-renewable sources.

Thanks Richard. Well they're currently more of a major party than UKIP and look at the attention they get from the chatterers.

[jean]

You can find all the Green party's policies here.

As for the 'major party' thing - it does get pretty annoying when the BBC and others are prepared to elevate UKIP to that status while still ignoring the Greens entirely.

Meanwhile, I read in yesterday's Observer just how big our ambitions are...