We're All In This Together .....

[scottycelt]

I think you miss the point .. there's a huge difference between running a branch of Tescos and running the London Sinfonietta .......

Ahhh, so you've now turned 'elitist' ... :biggrin:

I don't see much of a difference. Both are run as businesses. One for the provision of commodities and the other, music. Both charge for their services and both have to make ends meet and pay their workers, even if one has to rely on additional support to do so. The other has to make a profit in order to invest in the future and to continue to survive and prosper.

Finally, you may be astonished to discover the skill, dedication and hard work it takes to run a branch of Tescos successfully ... :whistle:

[MrGongGong]

Ahhh, so you've now turned 'elitist' ... :biggrin:

I don't see much of a difference. Both are run as businesses. One for the provision of commodities and the other, music. Both charge for their services and both have to make ends meet and pay their workers, even if one has to rely on additional support to do so. The other has to make a profit in order to invest in the future and to continue to survive and prosper.

Finally, you may be astonished to discover the skill, dedication and hard work it takes to run a branch of Tescos successfully ... :whistle:

:laugh:

That explains it Scotty
there is a huge difference
some of which you then explain

And i'm not knocking the work that goes into running a supermarket at all only commenting that because it's a model that works well for that it should work well for everything else. Having enough to live on is important , of course, but if the accumulation of "profits" was the only real reason for doing things then we would loose many of the things we value. Nothing to do with "elitism" at all ............

[ahinton]

:laugh:

That explains it Scotty
there is a huge difference
some of which you then explain

And i'm not knocking the work that goes into running a supermarket at all only commenting that because it's a model that works well for that it should work well for everything else. Having enough to live on is important , of course, but if the accumulation of "profits" was the only real reason for doing things then we would loose many of the things we value. Nothing to do with "elitism" at all ............

You and scotty are both right here, of course. Organisations that provide music performances need to be run like businesses just as do supermarkets; however, one of the problems with Thatcherism in the days when Thatcher herself was still at the helm of her private yacht called Britain was that a sense that if something didn't make a profit and/or was incapable of doing so then it was no good and must be dispensed with promptly, yet life, of course, just ain't like that, never was and never will be.

I'm not voting for La Monte Young, though...

[MrGongGong]

. Organisations that provide music performances need to be run like businesses .

This is only partly true
sure, no one can exist without basic financial stability or administrative competence
but my point is that some organisations (and some traditional businesses ) also need to do things that maybe "counter- intuitive" to what one considers to be "good business" ......... like a La Monte Young festival :biggrin: or most of the music that folk in here are enthusiastic about

[ahinton]

This is only partly true
sure, no one can exist without basic financial stability or administrative competence
but my point is that some organisations (and some traditional businesses ) also need to do things that maybe "counter- intuitive" to what one considers to be "good business" ......... like a La Monte Young festival :biggrin: or most of the music that folk in here are enthusiastic about

Actually, in taking your point here, I think that, in one sense, it actually behoves such organisations to be even more astute than some other more obviously profit-making ones in order that they achieve what they set out to achieve and don't go under as a consequence of doing so!

[MrGongGong]

Actually, in taking your point here, I think that, in one sense, it actually behoves such organisations to be even more astute than some other more obviously profit-making ones in order that they achieve what they set out to achieve and don't go under as a consequence of doing so!

Indeed why would one think otherwise ?
The danger (as with some of the BBC :yikes:) is that the wrong criteria for "success" are applied
"Success" does not always (I mean always as it sometime does) = expansion

[ahinton]

Indeed why would one think otherwise ?
The danger (as with some of the BBC :yikes:) is that the wrong criteria for "success" are applied
"Success" does not always (I mean always as it sometime does) = expansion

Exactly; indeed, "success" has now become almost as overused and misapplied a term as "emotion".

And had "success" and "expansion" actually been synonymous, mightn't Beethoven's Op. 135 been a quartet the size of the Hammerklavier?...

[teamsaint]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/feb/14/eurozone-crisis-live-recession-germany?google_editors_picks=true

even the Germans , it would seem.
Well , not the rich ones, obviously....

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

no organisation can survive that runs out of the needed cash ...supermarket or orchestra .... interestingly to keep on making money beyond this point it helps to run a supermarket like an orchestra ...

John Kay in his book Obliquity points out that most companies that set their ambition as return to shareholders [ie profit net cash or whatever] tend to not make enough cash to survive .... really successful businesses were and are trying to do something else ... ok not play Mozart but offer the best or most unusual something or other, a purpose and a competence ...so the resonances may be both deeper and more subtle between art and enterprise .....

most of the stereotypes of tough uncaring and exploitative business come from failing businesses ... some fascinating comparisons of company names in stock exchange listings over the decades .... the turnover is high .... most businesses are in fact fragile and vulnerable ... but far too many survive for too long run by the most awful bullies/liars/cheats ...as are some orchestras no doubt ....

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... but far too many survive for too long run by the most awful bullies/liars/cheats ...

I really don't think it's right to discuss Mr Gove in this way on a public forum.

[teamsaint]

no organisation can survive that runs out of the needed cash ...supermarket or orchestra .... interestingly to keep on making money beyond this point it helps to run a supermarket like an orchestra ...

John Kay in his book Obliquity points out that most companies that set their ambition as return to shareholders [ie profit net cash or whatever] tend to not make enough cash to survive .... really successful businesses were and are trying to do something else ... ok not play Mozart but offer the best or most unusual something or other, a purpose and a competence ...so the resonances may be both deeper and more subtle between art and enterprise .....

most of the stereotypes of tough uncaring and exploitative business come from failing businesses ... some fascinating comparisons of company names in stock exchange listings over the decades .... the turnover is high .... most businesses are in fact fragile and vulnerable ... but far too many survive for too long run by the most awful bullies/liars/cheats ...as are some orchestras no doubt ....

That is what the Chumbas thought, Jazzer...

Six in the morning don't want to wake
Sun laying low and the world sleeping late
Hate like the river runs heavy and deep
Oh I wish that they'd sack me and leave me to sleep

Five days from seven the week's hardly mine
The alarm clock's gone over to enemy lines
Waste my time working for cowards and creeps
Oh I wish that they'd sack me and leave me to sleep

[teamsaint]

we should be very concerned about this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9939296/Cyprus-bailout-live.html

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i predict a riot ... and if the arthritic hip and spinal stenosis permit, i might even join in ......

as time has passed since the uk riots i rather tend towards the view that the kids were right ....

[teamsaint]

The queen is getting a £5m raise, while the minimum wage level is under threat from that tosser osborne.

[MrGongGong]

The queen is getting a £5m raise,

:grr: