Iran

[heliocentric]

he repeated the threat at the UN the very day

No he didn't. Check your capital-F Facts with the text of his UN speech on 26 September. Here is the official transcript. Happy hunting!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/107095626/Transcript-Mahmoud-Ahmadinejad-s-speech-to-the-UN-General-Assembly-Wednesday-September-26-2012

[vinteuil]

I tend to prefer to deal in Facts.

"'NOW, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!'
The scene was a plain, bare, monotonous vault of a school-room, and the speaker's square forefinger emphasized his observations by underscoring every sentence with a line on the schoolmaster's sleeve. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's square wall of a forehead, which had his eyebrows for its base, while his eyes found commodious cellarage in two dark caves, overshadowed by the wall. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's mouth, which was wide, thin, and hard set. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's voice, which was inflexible, dry, and dictatorial. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's hair, which bristled on the skirts of his bald head, a plantation of firs to keep the wind from its shining surface, all covered with knobs, like the crust of a plum pie, as if the head had scarcely warehouse-room for the hard facts stored inside. The speaker's obstinate carriage, square coat, square legs, square shoulders, -- nay, his very neckcloth, trained to take him by the throat with an unaccommodating grasp, like a stubborn fact, as it was, -- all helped the emphasis.
'In this life, we want nothing but Facts, sir; nothing but Facts!' "

Sad to imagine our scottycelt as Gradgrind... :sadface:

It has to be said that the Catholic church lags about a hundred years behind various of its Protestant brothers and cousins in the areas of exegesis and hermeneutics. :erm:

[Bryn]

"Facts are stupid things."

[scottycelt]

No he didn't. Check your capital-F Facts with the text of his UN speech on 26 September. Here is the official transcript. Happy hunting!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/107095626/...tember-26-2012

It's all a bit time-wasting this pedantry. I was undoubtedly being a bit naive by merely mentioning 'at the UN' which, of course, could be eagerly and obviously joyfully 'interpreted' by yourself as referring to the official address on 26th Sept. 2012.

I was of course referring to a Reuters report a couple of days before the address when the President of Iran made the remarks he did ... here it is again for your perusal.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/24/un-assembly-ahmadinejad-idUSL1E8KO5BL20120924

I haven't yet come across any official Iranian refutations that the remarks were made when claimed or similar remarks beforehand ... have you?

[scottycelt]

"'NOW, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!'
The scene was a plain, bare, monotonous vault of a school-room, and the speaker's square forefinger emphasized his observations by underscoring every sentence with a line on the schoolmaster's sleeve. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's square wall of a forehead, which had his eyebrows for its base, while his eyes found commodious cellarage in two dark caves, overshadowed by the wall. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's mouth, which was wide, thin, and hard set. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's voice, which was inflexible, dry, and dictatorial. The emphasis was helped by the speaker's hair, which bristled on the skirts of his bald head, a plantation of firs to keep the wind from its shining surface, all covered with knobs, like the crust of a plum pie, as if the head had scarcely warehouse-room for the hard facts stored inside. The speaker's obstinate carriage, square coat, square legs, square shoulders, -- nay, his very neckcloth, trained to take him by the throat with an unaccommodating grasp, like a stubborn fact, as it was, -- all helped the emphasis.
'In this life, we want nothing but Facts, sir; nothing but Facts!' "

Sad to imagine our scottycelt as Gradgrind... :sadface:

It has to be said that the Catholic church lags about a hundred years behind various of its Protestant brothers and cousins in the areas of exegesis and hermeneutics. :erm:

Ahhhh, the Catholic Church ... of course, of course!! ... when will I ever learn? ... only a matter of time before the spaghetti monsters and flying teapots are seen to have something to with President Ahmadinejad's recorded threats as well.

Well, the opposite of fact is fiction ... at least we now have it on written record what some members here prefer.:laugh::ok:

[Bryn]

No he didn't. Check your capital-F Facts with the text of his UN speech on 26 September. Here is the official transcript. Happy hunting!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/107095626/...tember-26-2012

It's a waste of time and effort, helio. Scotty just comes back with a link to something misquoting (due to poor translation) a 2006 statement which has since been clarified on numerous occasions. Let's face it, for Scotty "Facts" are such things as human parthenogenesis, resurrection of the dead, turning water into wine, etc., etc.

[vinteuil]

It's a waste of time and effort

... I think you're right. He either simply doesn't understand, or wilfully chooses to misunderstand, various of the ideas we have been discussing. I don't think he has grasped the point of the flying teapot thought-experiment - or, if he has understood it, chooses to evade its implications by thinking it makes a funny joke :erm: ; and hasn't begun seriously to think through the implications of Biblical criticism, exegesis, and hermeneutics. He is, of course, not alone ...

[scottycelt]

... I think you're right. He either simply doesn't understand, or wilfully chooses to misunderstand, various of the ideas we have been discussing. I don't think he has grasped the point of the flying teapot thought-experiment - or, if he has understood it, chooses to evade its implications by thinking it makes a funny joke :erm: ; and hasn't begun seriously to think through the implications of Biblical criticism, exegesis, and hermeneutics. He is, of course, not alone ...

At least your imaginary thought-world of flying teapots has somehow managed to include some indisputable realities there ... :biggrin:

[scottycelt]

It's a waste of time and effort, helio. Scotty just comes back with a link to something misquoting (due to poor translation) a 2006 statement which has since been clarified on numerous occasions. Let's face it, for Scotty "Facts" are such things as human parthenogenesis, resurrection of the dead, turning water into wine, etc., etc.

What are you chuntering on about now?

My link referred to a report by Reuters of comments made on Monday 24th Sept 2012 by the President of Iran.

What's all this got to do with 2006, my shockingly appalling forum standards, or some weird and incomprehensible connection to traditional Christian belief ... ?

Flying teapots, anyone ... ? :winkeye:

[Bryn]

What are you chuntering on about now?

My link referred to a report by Reuters of comments made on Monday 24th Sept 2012 by the President of Iran.

What's all this got to do with 2006 ...

You could try reading the page you linked to.

[Oops, sorry. Failing eyesight. It was 2005, not 2006. Still rather old and since clarified, however.]

[handsomefortune]

being as it's raining:

eating cornflakes without getting into class warfare!

a very unfortunate choice of example! :laugh: the mass promotion of cornflakes marks a key change in the history of western food consumption. this specific highly processed corn product epitomises 'style over content', rather than thrift+nutrition of whole foods, pre telly. marketing strategies that had previously worked for a famous fizzy drink, or bars of soap, etc were newly applied to basic foods themselves. yet, once processed, there is supposedly more nutrition in the cardboard box than in the 'flakes'! but with the help of the domestic telly, manufacturers could suddenly sell practically any concept - good or bad, by just repeating 'attractive' adverts for a given product slotted between peoples' fave tv progs. likewise, the magic trick, power of 'association' has now become a useful tool within 21st c politics too. even though ultimately it's the actual actions as a result of domestic, and foreign policies respectively that really count.

imv our concept of 'russia', (or lack of) was underlined in the recent r4 prog about russian responses to the imprisonment of members of 'pussy riot'. russian 'gender politics' are apparently perceived 'safe' territory for discussion by r4. though the female journo who presented the current r4 docu research, (subtly) emphasised wider social problems in russia: specifically linked to the rapid demise of russia as a secular state and corruption amongst the current 'orthodox' church hierarchy. though it wasn't mentioned that, quite regardless of a particular history, most countries once mighty in the 20thc, have also reverted to the default of 'religious excuses' in one form or another, including the US and europe. often of late, it feels as though religion is instead of political participation.... rather than the very best aspirations of each working together to represent the needs of a people....what is presented in the docu as 'russia's problem' imv does not apply to russia alone...

ideally we should have a better informed world view, but this probably wont be courtesy of mainstream media. people who link to info outside the mainstream sources are often 'condemned' for being 'nerds', 'obsessives', even 'extremists'....and i suspect their links are ignored. (for instance, i could have linked to the outrageous history of 'mr kelloggs' but have resisted temptation :laugh:) i can therefore understand why some posters don't bother posting 'obscure' links about things that interest them as regards domestic, or world news. though a solution isn't necessarily provided in posting links to the daily mail 'instead':oh: regardless, perhaps no mb link can hope to change the US's track record of war, post ww2.

it is hardly surprising that many newly marvel at the threat, increased fear of the US, now it's currently on the back foot. the US is in huge financial debt to china, has unsustainable oil needs, and its identity is threatened as 'a global leader' for what many believe is genuinely 'the first time'. though you could argue that the US's track record suggests it's long been immature, paranoid, greedy and aggressive etc and that these negative qualities are sometimes re-represented as US 'strengths', rather than destructive to world peace, and a failure to exemplify civilised, democratic behavior! hammy permutations about the US's 'youthful vigour' as a 'young' nation aside....unfortunately, we get comparatively little news coverage of what average americans think. (similarly, 'the beeb at 60yrs' also seems to have provided an excuse for poor behaviour: what had been a jewel in our crown, miraculously morphed into the personification of an institution, into a prematurely 'enfeebled, elderly person' iirc! what sort of image do actual UK citizens have abroad as a direct result, and why are our views and needs suddenly dismissed, considered surplus)? the respective media transformations seem to legitimise, help in promoting a 'religion' of war, as preached by western political leaders. judging by recent beeb coverage of the appointment of the next leader of the cofe, the church directly mirrors politics. (jesus would surely have wept at an ex oil exec 'leading' His people)?

rather than accusations of 'same old same old' as regards perceived 'US prejudice', no one can deny that the global context is specifically different as far as the US, russia, and china are concerned. therefore imv posts can hardly be dismissed simply as long standing, fixed 'prejudice', or 'bashing'. people aren't necessarily as 'ignorant' of world politics as might be assumed, they merely may not discuss any knowledge they might possess ....on a forum primarily devoted to music appreciation!

Why this obsession with "condemnation"? (Scottycelt and others have it too.) to also return to team saint's post upthread, i associate an addiction to 'condemnation' with the tabloid papers tbh!

a news diet of the daily mail, express, sun, etc seems to make people obsessed with, delight in both suspicion and condemnation since most tabloid content contain these journalistic 'tools' to make news with, and about all sorts of people.

imv this is one of many good reasons not to read tabloids, or limit reading to the minimum. the broadsheets are far from perfect, a mixed bag, but simply have a more extensive range of stylistic sins, as far as journalism is concerned imo.....logically, there's less chance of personal thought 'contagion', risk of 'condemnation' becoming a turrets syndrome-like response to 'news'. unfortunately, sections of the media are nevertheless see themselves as the purveyors of the very finest condemnation ..... but sadly their condemnation is usually of use to all the wrong people, as far as the public are concerned. another perennial problem being, when dubious sections of the media really do have news to share, it is lost, ignored, amongst all the pointless condemnations, suspicions, and out and out fabrications exploited by desperate 'dailys', (as evidenced in the leveson inquiry).

lastly, imitating current media styles, eg the over use of mixed metaphors, or bouts of sickly sentimentalism, (as beloved by murdoch & employees) is imo great fun. but presents problems on a forum, since other posters can't see an author laughing at the trail of lurid cliches, any irony or humour intended completely lost unfortunately. :erm: however, since participation in a forum is a form of leisure activity, it always seems exceptionally odd that some seem to perceive 'condemnation' of others as a 'relaxing, and enjoyable pursuit' ....! while consistently disregarding any contradictory historical facts and/or personal offence felt! perhaps it's a sort of imitation of powerful western neo liberals, that can be taken up by confused, poorly informed people everywhere! the style is typically haughty, pushy, and evidence deemed superfluous.

to sum up, a central tenet of 21st c neo liberalism seems to require an elaborate version of 'shooting the messenger': all observations, including ones about the violent and rapacious nature of imperialism. are supposedly aced by the sheer distraction of condemnation of the messenger themselves. rather than the accuser feeling it remotely necessary to check the actual message for any truths! incidentally, just like marketing corn flakes, these tedious but popular tactics rely almost entirely on both style over content and repetition. regardless of what the iranian leader actually says, imo the west will decide what he means - to suit themselves, whilst the media stir trouble accordingly.

:peacedove::peacedove::peacedove::peacedove::peace dove::peacedove::peacedove::peacedove::peacedove:: peacedove::peacedove::peacedove::peacedove::peaced ove::peacedove::peacedove::peacedove::peacedove::p eacedove::peacedove::peacedove::peacedove::peacedo ve::peacedove:

[scottycelt]

You could try reading the page you linked to.

[Oops, sorry. Failing eyesight. It was 2005, not 2006. Still rather old and since clarified, however.]

Well, unless my eyesight is just as bad, it clearly states the comments of 'elimination' were made on Monday the 24th Sept 2012 ... where is the report dated 2006 (or 2005?)

Here's the link again on a different page!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/24/us-un-assembly-ahmadinejad-idUSBRE88N0HF20120924

I think it might be best to now leave it at that. There really is nothing more of any use that can be said on the matter. It's all there in print for anyone and everyone to read, even if the aid of spectacles is required.:smiley:

[amateur51]

Sad to imagine our scottycelt as Gradgrind... :sadface:

It has to be said that the Catholic church lags about a hundred years behind various of its Protestant brothers and cousins in the areas of exegesis and hermeneutics. :erm:

Great quotation, vints - that Chas knew a thing or too :winkeye:

The recently deceased Cardinal Martini (any clergyman named after a decent stiffner gets my vote :winkeye:) claimed shortly before he died that his Church was TWO hundred years behind but hey! Who's counting? :whistle:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cardinal-carlo-maria-martini-his-final-interview-and-a-damning-critique-that-has-rocked-the--catholic-church-8101498.html

[amateur51]

Ahhhh, the Catholic Church ... of course, of course!! ... when will I ever learn? ... only a matter of time before the spaghetti monsters and flying teapots are seen to have something to with President Ahmadinejad's recorded threats as well.

Well, the opposite of fact is fiction ... at least we now have it on written record what some members here prefer.:laugh::ok:

You're on self-inflicted dangerous ground there scotty :whistle:

[amateur51]

It's a waste of time and effort, helio. Scotty just comes back with a link to something misquoting (due to poor translation) a 2006 statement which has since been clarified on numerous occasions. Let's face it, for Scotty "Facts" are such things as human parthenogenesis, resurrection of the dead, turning water into wine, etc., etc.

Well don't say I didn't warn ya, scotty :sadface::biggrin: