The poppy thread

[MrGongGong]

I wonder what would happen to any TV newsreader/presenter who had the courage to refuse to wear a poppy, or wore a white one? They'd be savaged by the majority of the press, at the very least.

indeed
so much for our supposed culture of individualism

"with us or against us" seems to be the prevailing tide unfortunately
:sadface:

[Mahlerei]

Simon says it's mainly military personnel who are killed in a given conflict. Tell that to the people of Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Srebrenice (to name but a few).

[Simon]

I wonder what would happen to any TV newsreader/presenter who had the courage to refuse to wear a poppy, or wore a white one? They'd be savaged by the majority of the press, at the very least.

Well, one would certainly hope so. Courage has nothing to do with it: it's sheer irrational naivete.

I know you're a major fan of BB, Mary, but that's musical: surely you don't fall for his "pacifist" stuff as well? After all, if everybody in 1939 had followed his line, we'd all be speaking German now. (Except, of course, for those of us whose forebears had been sent to the camps, that is. We wouldn't exist at all...)

[Simon]

Simon says it's mainly military personnel who are killed in a given conflict. Tell that to the people of Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Srebrenice (to name but a few).

Again, misses the point. Oh dear. <sigh> And why not mention Coventry, Sheffield and the London Blitz?

That civilians are killed in major conflicts isn't in doubt. But nonetheless it is the military who deliberately put themselves in harm's way to fight against evil. That is why, with no disrespect or intention to minimise the individual and family tragdy of every civilian life lost, the military should be involved in Remembrance events.

For those interested in figures, by the way, the following is a reasonably reliable summary from WWII, which confirms my point:

Military deaths are given first, then civilian deaths

Commonwealth 373K, 92K
Germany 3.5m, 780K
Japan 1.3m, 672K
USSR 11m, 7m

The figures for the USSR are such as to defy imagination. I once read about Stalingrad and was horrorstruck. Despite the fact that many civilan deaths were the direct fault of incompetent soviet officials, never again must we let these things happen. That means standing up for what is right. And fighting for it, if necessary.

[Pabmusic]

That civilians are killed in major conflicts isn't in doubt. But nonetheless it is the military who deliberately put themselves in harm's way to fight against evil. That is why, with no disrespect or intention to minimise the individual and family tragdy of every civilian life lost, the military should be involved in Remembrance events.

I'm with you, Simon, because, on the whole, direct military action against civilians has not been a common feature of British history. The Army was never liked much before the 20th century, and parliament deliberately restricted its size. Also, we've generally chosen the 'right/just' side in major conflicts (difficult to define, I know), where we've usually been a junior partner with all the constrictions that implies (this is certainly true of both world wars, as it is of the Napoleonic wars. It's arguably true of the Seven Year's War, also). It must be harder to defend military ceremonies where the history has been one of widespread civilian oppression.

Having said all this, we have had our moments. The carpet-bombing of German cities is not so easy to defend, even if they did it first. Even worse was the slow starvation of German civilians due to the WW1 British blockade, even if it did shorten the war. It is surely right that we remember all these people and not separate them into 'military' and 'civilian'. Remembrance Day began out of respect for the tremendous losses of WW1, most of them not professional soldiers at all.

The figures you quote are conservative. These are taken from Wikipedia, where they carry references (the British ones are from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, for instance):

UK & Commonwealth: 383,000 military/ 67,000 civilian
France: 217,000/350,000 (These figures are interesting. The war lasted just 298 days for France, during most of which there was no fighting.)
Germany 5,500,000/1-3 million
Poland 240,000/5.5 million
USSR 8.8-10.7 million/14.6-12.7 million (it's sometimes difficult to distinguish civilian from military)
Philippines 57,000/500,000-1 million (I've included the Philippines as a reminder of a forgotten theatre.)

The total for all nations is something like 23 million military and 37-55million civilian. The First World War was just under 10 million military and 1 million civilian, with a further 6 million civilians dying of disease and starvation. Surely, these ought to be remembered, and not just once a year.

[John Skelton]

Don't forget Kurdistan in the 1920s, pabmusic.

The RAF bombed and machine-gunned Iraqis and Kurds:

"The Arab and Kurd now know what real bombing means in casualties and damage. Within forty-five minutes a full-size village can be practically wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or injured."

Wing-Commander Sir Arthur (later 'Bomber') Harris.

"Air power is of vital concern to the Empire and in Iraq, under the control of an air officer, further evidence is accumulating of its great potentialities. A continued demonstration, until its effectiveness is beyond dispute, may have far-reaching results, in that it may lead to still further economies in defence expenditure, not only in Iraq, but also in other Eastern territories where armed forces are required to give effect to British policy and uphold British prestige".

Hugh Trenchard (RAF chief of staff 1919 - 1927).

The best tactic was to bomb the "most inaccessible village of the most prominent tribe which it is desired to punish.

All available aircraft must be collected, the attack with bombs and machine guns must be relentless and unremitting and carried on continuously by day and night, on houses, inhabitants, crops and cattle."

Wing Commander J. A. Chamier in 1921.

See Sven Lindqvist, A History of Bombing Granta Books 2001

[Mary Chambers]

Well, one would certainly hope so. Courage has nothing to do with it: it's sheer irrational naivete.

I know you're a major fan of BB, Mary, but that's musical: surely you don't fall for his "pacifist" stuff as well?

Of course I do (though 'fall for' are not the words I would use). His conscientious objector status is one of the many reasons I admire him.

I know that WW2 (during which I was born) is a very, very difficult question, but people must be allowed to follow their conscience. For some people, conscience will allow them to fight. For some, it won't. There are always more of the former than the latter, on both 'sides' - that's why we still have wars.

[Pabmusic]

Don't forget Kurdistan in the 1920s, pabmusic.

You're absolutely right, of course, but I wasn't trying to give a comprehensive list. If I were, I'd add the Crimean War. The allies (Britain, France, Turkey and some Italian states) gave an ultimatum to Russia to withdraw their troops from an illegal incursion into Bulgaria. The Russians complied, but the allies went to war anyway, because they had the troops in place. That one did not involve significant numbers of civilians, of course, but it was every bit as dubious as the recent invasion of Iraq.

[MrGongGong]

I know you're a major fan of BB, Mary, but that's musical: surely you don't fall for his "pacifist" stuff as well?

I know you're a major fan of The English Church music tradition , Simon, but that's musical: surely you don't fall for all that Christianity nonsense as well ? you know the people who follow the pacifist teacher Jesus ?

[Simon]

Of course I do (though 'fall for' are not the words I would use). His conscientious objector status is one of the many reasons I admire him.

I know that WW2 (during which I was born) is a very, very difficult question, but people must be allowed to follow their conscience. For some people, conscience will allow them to fight. For some, it won't. There are always more of the former than the latter, on both 'sides' - that's why we still have wars.

Just one question then, Mary. If everyone in the Allied nations had acted as Britten, what would have happened?

[Serial_Apologist]

Just one question then, Mary. If everyone in the Allied nations had acted as Britten, what would have happened?

They would have composed the violin and piano concertos, and the "Sinfonia da Requiem", as a collective?

[Mary Chambers]

Just one question then, Mary. If everyone in the Allied nations had acted as Britten, what would have happened?

It's a hypothetical question, and you know it. Why separate nations? In the unlikely though highly desirable event that everyone in the world acted as Britten (and numerous other people) did, there would be no war. It's a principle, and a matter of individual conscience, as I said. I would remind you that conscientious objection was recognised and legal. It was an official status that had to be granted by a court, and Britten convinced them, I'm glad to say. He was prepared to take the consequences.

Do you think people should be forced to act against their conscience? Do you act against your conscience? I hope I don't.

[amateur51]

He was prepared to take the consequences.

Unlike Simon who would just have put the court on 'ignore' :laugh:

[MrGongGong]

They would have composed the violin and piano concertos, and the "Sinfonia da Requiem", as a collective?

:ok::ale:

I thought this "the Nazis at the door with their jackboots" type of hypothetical nonsense had died out in the 1980's, even my Father, arch Thatcherite that he was stopped this rubbish in about 1985

Mary, Simon doesn't have a conscience, he plays lip service to some daft interpretation of so called "Christianity" that seems to ignore the basic principles of that religion.:sadface:

[Simon]

Do you think people should be forced to act against their conscience? Do you act against your conscience? I hope I don't.

Not at all, no. We're all different. I would have hoped that my conscience would have allowed me, and that I'd have been brave enough, to fight the evil of Nazism, however distasteful such fighting and killing would have been.

And I'm forever grateful that so many did.

And I tend to wonder about those who left it to others...