The poppy thread

[MrGongGong]

Run out of town by those worthy 'rough & ready' people waving pitch-forks, no doubt.




I'm sure I'd like many of the people you describe, Simon, & have many things in common with them. I wouldn't feel the need to patronise & sentimentalise them, though.

i think its more like this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llMwXSyLr20

[burning dog]

.I know a lot of people, my family included, who ranked from uneasy to downright contempuous of the glorifiyng of war My Great Uncle was a WW1 veteran who lost a brothers life and a fathers health and sanity. He was a member of 'the legion' and attended War memorials, but said in place of "The Glorious Dead" he'd have inscribed "Poor Buggers!" Remembrance day meant a lot to them. I think people wear the poppy with different outlooks but are united in grief, or certainly were between the Wars and in the aftermath of WW2.

After the Great War there seemed a collective loss of innocence. A shock for the working class who weren't part of the Imperial 'effort' and had never been abroad was that the Germans were 'just like us' whatever one thougt of their leaders actions.

The legion are still relevant today and should offer support and advice to soldiers including the important social aspect, but they shouldn't have to attend to ex servicemans physical and financial needs. The Army/State should do it! The dead are revered but the survivors often end up homless.


Regarding todays soldiers perhaps if there was more chance for brightish but non-academic youths to follow a trade there wouldn't be so many recruits, it's still sold as a route to an apprentiship as much as anything else in the adverts. I've heard people deride sqauddies in the same way as in the redcoat days "Don't worry, people like us won't end up fighting" They may be trendy, psuedo-liberals or whatever but with that class outlook not lefties.

[burning dog]

It's years since I've worn a poppy. Like many, i suspect, I'm happy to buy one without actually taking one - and I certainly wouldn't dream of wearing one. Leave all that to scurvy politicians, who wear them in lieu of polishing their halos.

Yes. they come out earlier and earlier every year!

[John Skelton]

boring

[Flosshilde]

I think that the biggest service that could be done for ex-servicemen when they come out of the army etc is to give them mandatory counselling & support to help them cope with civilian life. Everything is provided for them, they are taught to obey orders without thinking & without questionning, and they are trained to give free rein to their agression & to kill (& before Mr Pee pipes up, the ones in the programme about Sandhurst I saw recently were certainly trained to kill). None of these are especially desirable in civilian life, yet there is no programme to re-train, or remove these undesirable traits.

[Stillhomewardbound]

What is it they say, if the dead of the Great War were to walk four abreast passed the cenotaph, their souls at least, then their passing would last three and a half days.

[Mr Pee]

I think that the biggest service that could be done for ex-servicemen when they come out of the army etc is to give them mandatory counselling & support to help them cope with civilian life. Everything is provided for them, they are taught to obey orders without thinking & without questionning, and they are trained to give free rein to their agression & to kill (& before Mr Pee pipes up, the ones in the programme about Sandhurst I saw recently were certainly trained to kill). None of these are especially desirable in civilian life, yet there is no programme to re-train, or remove these undesirable traits.

A soldier?? Trained to kill??? Whatever next??? The world's gone mad I tells ye. MAD!!!!

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif

[Simon]

"Why am I suddenly reminded ..." etc.

Probably because you didn't grasp the point that I was making.

[Simon]

A soldier?? Trained to kill??? Whatever next??? The world's gone mad I tells ye. MAD!!!!

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif

Now now, Mr P. Don't mock. It's Flossie. Do you expect intelligence?

btw how pleasant it is not to have to read the predictable chattering of the three that I have on ignore! :smiley:

[Pabmusic]

What is it they say, if the dead of the Great War were to walk four abreast passed the cenotaph, their souls at least, then their passing would last three and a half days.

Assuming that they pass the Cenotaph at a speed of one group of four abreast each second, it would take about 2 days and 21 hours for the UK 'souls' to pass*, extended to 3 days 13 hours for Britain and the Empire (so your memory is spot on). The UK figure includes civilian deaths (from U-boats and air raids); it would amount to fractionally more than 2 days if we limit the calculation to combatant deaths, and the Empire figure would be correspondingly lower.

However, why limit it to the Empire? If the souls of all allied nations were to parade at the Cenotaph (including those of Britain and the Empire, who I imagine are already here for their own parade), it would take more than 28 days for them all to pass. It would take the French alone almost 5 days.

But why allow just the allies? It's all long enough ago for us to be objective. Invite the Axis nations, and lengthen the procession by a further 20 days.

Mind-boggling, isn't it?

The serious point is that Remembrance Day meant something very different in 1919 than it can ever do now, so I see nothing wrong (and everything right) in using it to remind us of the tragedy of all war, however justified any particular conflict may (or may not) be.

*[all this is based on casualty figures lifted from Wikipedia, which are reasonably representative of other sources]

[John Skelton]

A soldier?? Trained to kill??? Whatever next??? The world's gone mad I tells ye. MAD!!!!

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif

I don't think Flosshilde is expressing surprise that soldiers are trained to kill: rather suggesting that once they are no longer required to kill there is no attempt made to help them adjust from doing things which in civilian life are regarded as sociopathic and criminal: "they are trained to give free rein to their aggression & to kill ... None of these are especially desirable in civilian life, yet there is no programme to re-train, or remove these undesirable traits."

You may think that's all unnecessary and people move seamlessly from blowing people to bits to working in a call centre (though in 2009 the Daily Mail appeared to disagree with that http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...udy-finds.html). But I'm not sure Flosshilde's comment was as hilarious as you thought it. Perhaps it might be worth you having another read :smiley:?

[MrGongGong]

Now now, Mr P. Don't mock. It's Flossie. Do you expect intelligence?

btw how pleasant it is not to have to read the predictable chattering of the three that I have on ignore! :smiley:

Its those Psychic powers at work again !!!!

How can something you don't read be predictable ?

Shades of schrodinger's cat methinks !

Choosing to "ignore" people renders ones participation invalid imv

[Bryn]

Its those Psychic powers at work again !!!!

How can something you don't read be predictable ?

Shades of schrodinger's cat methinks !

Choosing to "ignore" people renders ones participation invalid imv

I must take issue with you there, MrGG. The 'contributor' in question's participation requires no use of the ignore option on his part in order to render it invalid. There is no validity there in the first place to be so rendered.

[Flosshilde]

A soldier?? Trained to kill??? Whatever next??? The world's gone mad I tells ye. MAD!!!!

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif

As usual Mr P misses the point. (and Simon backs him up). But we don't expect intelligent comment from them, do we?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have nothing against people wearing poppies, or contribution to the fund. My gripe is with the militarisation of Rememberance services. Why do they have to bring weapons into churches, even though they are (presumably) only symbolic? Symbolic of what? Killing people, perhaps - and both sides in a conflict do that.
Heros are only people who fought on your own side.