The poppy thread

[Simon]

Ceremonial outrage? Now there's a concept. :erm:

All countries have their own remembrance traditions. It seems only right that each nation remembers its own war dead in its own way. And if you watch the veterans and the families of the veterans who march past the Cenotaph, you'll see civilian representatives alongside them, and representatives from all Commonwealth countries.

I don't think anyone needs reminding that war is an outrage. But remembrance Sunday is an opportunity for dignified and respectful memory of the dead. Moving? Yes. But far from sentimental.

Indeed. Well put, Mr P.

And though each death is the same as regards a life lost and a personal tragedy, the death of those of our own nation and allies who have died fighting for the freedoms that we enjoy today - eroded though some of these have been - most surely and most especially deserves never to be forgotten by those who come after.

Those of the left and right, whether vicious or simply deluded and naive, who try to politicise the remembrance of the sacrifices and who denigrate those who made them, are not fit to lick their boots. Fortunately we don't get them around these parts: in the villages and hamlets of the Peak, the communities join together to honour the war dead. Some, of course, still mourn spouses and siblings - though sadly, in the past year, we have lost two old soldiers. Rough and ready they were, and in some ways unsophisticated - but theirs were the values that truly matter - values of honest work, decency, patriotism, service to community and loyalty that have stood the test of time and that helped our nation survive.

Of course, some will never be able to grasp or comprehend such values. They are totally beyond the reach of trendy, pseudo-sophisticated quasi-liberals...

[Pabmusic]

i do believe there were conscripts in WW2 and Korea not to mention the national service men who had to fight to defend the imperial presence in the 1950s ..

Absolutely so. Conscription operated from 1916-1919 and from 1939-1960.

[Mr Pee]

There's no "political" bias at all
Remembrance Sunday has been turned into a memory of all people in the military who have died
there is a difference (as has been stated) between professional soldiers and conscripted teenagers in WW1 but you seem unable to see that

Remembrance Sunday has ALWAYS been a memory of all people in the military who have died. You seem to think that some war dead are more "worthy" than others simply because of the circumstances of their enlistment.

Try telling that to their mothers, fathers, sons and daughters, and let me know what response you get.....:sadface:

[BBMmk2]

Yes, your right aka. Well, it would be a good thing if the countires who are united, as such(or perhaps connected), with each other through the economy) would contribute an International Day of Remeberance?

[vinteuil]

theirs were the values that truly matter - values of honest work, decency, patriotism, service to community and loyalty that have stood the test of time and that helped our nation survive.

Of course, some will never be able to grasp or comprehend such values. They are totally beyond the reach of trendy, pseudo-sophisticated quasi-liberals...

Why am I suddenly reminded of the Vichy régime's need to change the motto for France -

from Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité

to Travail - Famille - Patrie

:erm: :sadface:

[MrGongGong]

Remembrance Sunday has ALWAYS been a memory of all people in the military who have died. You seem to think that some war dead are more "worthy" than others simply because of the circumstances of their enlistment.

Try telling that to their mothers, fathers, sons and daughters, and let me know what response you get.....:sadface:

It certainly has NOT always been in memory of ALL people who have died
When I was young, it was clearly about WW1 and the tragic waste of a whole generation ,
I never used the word "WORTHY" that's one of your inventions
but there is , a difference between this event and Iraq and the Afgan war
which is NOT (make sure you read that word mrP , I'll repeat it for you NOT !!!!) to say that for the relatives and friends of those who have died in Iraq and Afganistan it is a great and tragic loss.

[Anna]

I should declare an interest. I'll be on the street selling poppies for the British Legion. I'm not doing this because of some romantic notion of war and helping heroes, nor am I endorsing the current conflict as I think it's absolutely wrong.

I'm doing it for the reasons Calum posted in his #16 and as David as said in #25, an act of remembrance

[Mr Pee]

It certainly has NOT always been in memory of ALL people who have died
When I was young, it was clearly about WW1 and the tragic waste of a whole generation ,
I never used the word "WORTHY" that's one of your inventions
but there is , a difference between this event and Iraq and the Afgan war
which is NOT (make sure you read that word mrP , I'll repeat it for you NOT !!!!) to say that for the relatives and friends of those who have died in Iraq and Afganistan it is a great and tragic loss.

Oh my. Obviously the event was created after the Great War. But it very rapidly became a memorial for all those who died in all wars. I'm not sure how old you are, but in my youth- and I'm no spring chicken- I was in no doubt that the ceremony honoured those who had died in WW2 and other conflicts as well.

And I think you need to re-check your last sentence. Either you meant to say " is not to say that for the relatives and friends of those who died in Iraq and Afghanistan it is ANYTHING OTHER THAN a great and tragic loss"- or you're even more wrong headed than I previously thought. Which would be a scale of wrong headedness of quite mind-boggling proportion. :yikes:

[Mr Pee]

I should declare an interest. I'll be on the street selling poppies for the British Legion. I'm not doing this because of some romantic notion of war and helping heroes, nor am I endorsing the current conflict as I think it's absolutely wrong.

I'm doing it for the reasons Calum posted in his #16 and as David as said in #25, an act of remembrance

:ok::rose:

[Serial_Apologist]

I should declare an interest. I'll be on the street selling poppies for the British Legion. I'm not doing this because of some romantic notion of war and helping heroes, nor am I endorsing the current conflict as I think it's absolutely wrong.

I'm doing it for the reasons Calum posted in his #16 and as David as said in #25, an act of remembrance

Me too, Anna - though for many years I refused to be browbeaten into wearing what I considered an insignia to unneccessary mass loss of life and glorification of heroism in war - where better to demonstrate that, eh?? Given that I've had to accept charities substituting for the care that I believe should be on the taxpayer, I've reluctantly changed my mind on that as on other matters of social provision over the last couple of years - though I still find it strange thinking of all the different individual and mutually contradictory decisions determining why people do wear the poppy. Not quite the community/nation unifying act some might think of it as being.

[Mr Pee]

And reading Wilfred Owen poems instead of Laurence Binyon, perhaps.

Oh yes, what a lovely idea, to remind the families of those who died just how horrific and gruesome their deaths may have been.

I think the fact that they have lost a loved one is all the reminder they will ever need about the horror and tragedy of war. :sadface:

[MrGongGong]

And I think you need to re-check your last sentence. Either you meant to say " is not to say that for the relatives and friends of those who died in Iraq and Afghanistan it is ANYTHING OTHER THAN a great and tragic loss"-

indeed that is what I meant (a missed couple of words that I'm sure I typed !)


expressing misgivings about the way that this has been hijacked is NOT an act of treason
the way that the church gets "into bed" with the military and dodgy politicians (who then go on to sell arms to dodgy regimes with apparently NO moral conflict ) is nauseating

[amateur51]

Of course, some will never be able to grasp or comprehend such values. They are totally beyond the reach of trendy, pseudo-sophisticated quasi-liberals...

I'm sorry they wouldn't accept your offer of a pint down the Cringe & Forelock, Simon. Try not to take it to heart. :erm:

[Flosshilde]

Fortunately we don't get them around these parts:

Run out of town by those worthy 'rough & ready' people waving pitch-forks, no doubt.

in the villages and hamlets of the Peak, ... Rough and ready they were, and in some ways unsophisticated - but theirs were the values that truly matter - values of honest work, decency, patriotism, service to community and loyalty that have stood the test of time and that helped our nation survive.

I'm sure I'd like many of the people you describe, Simon, & have many things in common with them. I wouldn't feel the need to patronise & sentimentalise them, though.

[Mandryka]

It's years since I've worn a poppy. Like many, i suspect, I'm happy to buy one without actually taking one - and I certainly wouldn't dream of wearing one. Leave all that to scurvy politicians, who wear them in lieu of polishing their halos.