The poppy thread

[mangerton]

Just one question then, Mary. If everyone in the Allied nations had acted as Britten, what would have happened?

Here are two possible answers, one a song from the sixties. I'm not saying I completely agree with them, but they are perhaps worth considering.

http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/s/sainte_marie_buffy/universal_soldier.html

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15016.htm

[Stillhomewardbound]

My motivaton in starting this thread was as a means of providing a conduit for the clash that inevitably occurs about this time of the year. However, maybe I ought to have left well alone and let the phenomenon occur organically, as it were. Then, I would not have felt partially responsible for the rancour that has cropped up within.

Don't get me wrong. Much of the discussion has been entirely appropriate and very imnformative, but there is also the sneering snidery that has been too prevalent and provacative.

In fact, I'm inclined to advocate a boycott of the 'usual suspects'. So, who are they?

Well, that can only be up to each board member to decide, but if you do have such a suspect or suspects in mind then the next time they are out and about and make a remark to strike your ire, simply do not respond.

Walk away and return at such time as someone has a more rational point to make.

[amateur51]

Here are two possible answers, one a song from the sixties. I'm not saying I completely agree with them, but they are perhaps worth considering.

http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/s/sainte_marie_buffy/universal_soldier.html

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle15016.htm

Thanks, mangerton :ok:

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks, mangerton :ok:

Strongly seconded, AM51.

Charles Sullivan's message should be A B C to anyone by now, but the softening up process I first heard articulated by Jules Henry at the Roundhouse, back in 1967, still has to be explained.

[Nick Armstrong]

Just one question then, Mary. If everyone in the Allied nations had acted as Britten, what would have happened?

Ah yes, the rhetorical refuge of the scoundrel... "If everyone wanted to xyz, what then?"

The most pointless of arguments.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...c/slaphead.gif

[amateur51]

Ah yes, the rhetorical refuge of the scoundrel... "If everyone wanted to xyz, what then?"

The most pointless of arguments.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...c/slaphead.gif

Agreed with gusto, Caliban! :ok:

The answer is, of course, "I don't know Simon ... and neither do you".:biggrin:

[rank_and_file]

Kipling had the majority of you well summed up years ago; you should be ashamed of yourselves.



Tommy


I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

-- Rudyard Kipling

[Nick Armstrong]

I buy a poppy and have no problem with my donation being used to aid the victims of war from the military; but my thoughts tend to dwell on all victims of war (the military not least among them, but others too) - as they do also when listening to certain Shostakovich pieces, and the Britten War Requiem, or the Shropshire Lad songs, or ... (many others).

[MrGongGong]

aaah yes Kipling who pulled strings to get his son into the army
and then wrote after he died

"If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied."

[rank_and_file]

MrGG

I just knew that someone would quote the two enigmatic lines of “Common Form” from "Epitaphs of the War", published in 1919.

Your post seems to suggest that the lines refer to Kipling’s own guilt that he pulled strings to get his extremely myopic son into the Irish Guards, and thus was indirectly the cause of his death at Loos in 1915. Whilst the death affected Kipling terribly he did not change his views on the war nor the Germans.

There are views held by many biographers that the lines refer to the pre-war Liberal politicians who had maintained that Britain was prepared for a major war, when it became obvious that we were not. In fact there also might be a link to Sassoon’s Anti-war Declaration which was read out in Parliament. There is an epitaph close to the one you quote called “A Dead Statesman” where the cause for the war is blamed on a politician who lied.

All a bit academic now, and politicians seem to keep on lying to the country.

[MrGongGong]

I'm no Kipling expert
but they are hardly "enigmatic"
and sadly they keep lying

[Simon]

Ah yes, the rhetorical refuge of the scoundrel... "If everyone wanted to xyz, what then?"

The most pointless of arguments.

Is your first sentence actually supposed to mean anything?

Your second clearly doesn't.

[Bryn]

Both sentences are clear in their meaning to those prepared to engage their brains.

[Pabmusic]

I buy a poppy and have no problem with my donation being used to aid the victims of war from the military; but my thoughts tend to dwell on all victims of war (the military not least among them, but others too) - as they do also when listening to certain Shostakovich pieces, and the Britten War Requiem, or the Shropshire Lad songs, or ... (many others).

How I do agree. War is a tragedy, and everyone is scarred by it. Attempts to distinguish between those affected using a morality that equates combatants with 'evil' per se are very naive. The reality is that most people who fought and died in the two world wars did so not because they were 'heroes' or 'brutes', 'patriots' or the 'tools of oppression', 'capitalists', 'imperialists', 'fascists' or 'communists'. They did so because they had very little real choice, or no choice at all, whatever political system they came from. That is part of the tragedy that we should remember.

[Simon]

Both sentences are clear in their meaning to those prepared to engage their brains.

Indeed? then no doubt you can explain the logic of them, with examples in illustration. In other words, put up or ....

I'm away for a day or two, so you should have the time.