The poppy thread

[Pabmusic]

I've just noticed that the Beeb illustrates the story on its website with a picture of an England player wearing a paper poppy. They obviously felt, like me, that that was what the story was about. Or else they couldn't find an embroidered shirt.

[Stillhomewardbound]

Just so, Pabmusic, I too thought this was a story about players stepping on to the pitch with the standard 'poppies' pinned to their jerseys, but not so.

On another point, I am curious why this symbol has not endured in North America in the same way. The poem 'In Flanders Fields' which inspired the gesture was written by Canadian John McRae and it was an American lady in New York who would pick poppies in New York's Central Park and give them to veterans as an act of remembrance. It then came to Europe via one Mme Guerin who had heard of the NewYorker's habit (Miss Moina Michael) and by 1921 she had engineered a meeting with Earl Haigh and had exhorted the adoption of the symbol.

[Pabmusic]

On another point, I am curious why this symbol has not endured in North America in the same way. The poem 'In Flanders Fields' which inspired the gesture was written by Canadian John McRae and it was an American lady in New York who would pick poppies in New York's Central Park and give them to veterans as an act of remembrance. It then came to Europe via one Mme Guerin who had heard of the NewYorker's habit (Miss Moina Michael) and by 1921 she had engineered a meeting with Earl Haigh and had exhorted the adoption of the symbol.

The BBC had this up just now:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15637074

[John Skelton]

Football teams have been wearing kit with a poppy on the shirt for the past two weekends. Last Saturday / Sunday there was a minute's silence, generally with a soldier in combat fatigues in the centre circle. It seems as if on TV they've been worn for a month, though it may only seem like that. The Remembrance poppy is becoming like Hot Cross Buns or Christmas, earlier every year and decreasingly attached to the original idea.

Clearly it's beyond the FA, sports minister Hugh Robertson, the media, tweeting Jack Wilshere et al to recognise how insulting to the memory of the dead their disgraceful posturing and emotional fakery are.

[scottycelt]

Questionable, Scotty. The Poppy Appeal raises funds for the Royal British Legion. It's website says that "We help serving and ex-Service personnel and their families. Not just those who fought in the two World Wars, but also those involved in the many conflicts since 1945 and those still fighting today." (http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/about-us), so any attempt to make the poppy signify civilians who have died, or military personnel from all sides of a conflict, is stretching it beyond the stated purpose.

I take your point, Floss, and it is an excellent one accompanied with indisputable evidence.

However, I am old enough to remember past times when it was stressed that poppy-wearing was to commemorate all who died in two world wars and was in no way nationalistic and/or political.

It is perfectly reasonable (and indeed admirable and necessary) for the Royal British Legion to look after our brave servicemen involved in current conflicts, but, if they are now included in the reason for poppy-wearing, it therefore makes the original FIFA poppy ban on international football shirts correct and logical.

[teamsaint]

I take your point, Floss, and it is an excellent one accompanied with indisputable evidence.

However, I am old enough to remember past times when it was stressed that poppy-wearing was to commemorate all who died in two world wars and was in no way nationalistic and/or political.

It is perfectly reasonable (and indeed admirable and necessary) for the Royal British Legion to look after our brave servicemen involved in current conflicts, but, if they are now included in the reason for poppy-wearing, it therefore makes the original FIFA poppy ban on international football shirts correct and logical.

Frankly, having the FA in any way involved with remembrance is disrespectful to the whole notion of remembrance itself.

Sports people played honourable roles in the world wars, but not the greed driven monster that is modern FA run football.

[Lateralthinking1]

I just don't understand this story. The right wing media is full of it this morning. Ludicrous FIFA. The poppy is not political. Wills and Cameron ensure that common sense is shown.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall footballers wearing the poppy in the past. Mind you, I have only been aware of the sport for 41 years. So why now? The implication in the press is that FIFA's original position was some sort of major reversal.

In actuality, this looks rather like a British political whim with an ulterior motive. What are we not being told? Is this some sort of pre-Olympics advert or is there a more direct and immediate payback to someone?

[greenilex]

I feel i must point out that there is a recruitment angle to all this. The ones who may be influenced by poppies on the pitch are the very same who may consider expending their natural aggressions in a military context...

[Norfolk Born]

Slightly off-topic, but may I refer you to 'Bleached bone and living wood' on Radio 4 at 11.30 a.m. (thereafter on the i-Player) and to the link from the BBC News front page?
(I never used to buy a poppy - then I discovered that my great-uncle was killed on The Somme at the age of 20 - his name is on the Thiepval memorial - and I guess it's for him that I'm wearing it. I think many people associate the poppy largely or excusively with World War I).

[french frank]

In actuality, this looks rather like a British political whim with an ulterior motive. What are we not being told? Is this some sort of pre-Olympics advert or is there a more direct and immediate payback to someone?

Could be. But wasn't there some sort of protest from the British Legion about a Conservative poster in the General Election? I can't quite remember the details.

[Bryn]

Interesting discussion of this matter towards the end of Radio 4's Today programme this morning. Worth catching on the iPlayer. A history of compulsory wearing of poppies for BBC appearances was particularly shocking I thought.

[Flosshilde]

I just don't understand this story. The right wing media is full of it this morning. Ludicrous FIFA. The poppy is not political. Wills and Cameron ensure that common sense is shown.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall footballers wearing the poppy in the past. Mind you, I have only been aware of the sport for 41 years. So why now? The implication in the press is that FIFA's original position was some sort of major reversal.

In actuality, this looks rather like a British political whim with an ulterior motive. What are we not being told? Is this some sort of pre-Olympics advert or is there a more direct and immediate payback to someone?

Absolutely.

As for branding, last Saturday there was a large trailer/van parked in Glasgow's main shopping street selling 'Poppy merchandise' - I saw tee-shirts & mugs. A little later I saw a woman in a cafe sporting an enourmous red poppy on her coat - remembrance as fashion accessory. They seem to be taking a lesson from Red Nose day, which has become ubiquitous & ridiculous, with noses on buildings.

(take a look at the 'Poppy Shop' - some tasteful diamond broaches available - http://www.poppyshop.org.uk/)
The Guardian had photographs of an England football shirt with an embroidered poppy, and a black armband.

[amateur51]

The British Legion (Charity number 219279) is in a potentially difficult place currently. It sensibly declined to accept 'a donation' from the Murdochs on the closure of NoTW but it previously accepted Bliar's £4m 'blood money' resulting from his memoirs. Its most recent audited accounts to September 2010 show expenditure of £114.5m funded by income of £115.24m. There is also £174m held in long-term reserves, meaning that they hold the equivalent of 18 months' expenditure in long-term reserves. I think that's a pretty comfortable position for the Trustees to be in.

[David Underdown]

The FA run the game at the amateur level, as well as the top. During WWI the 17th and 23rd Battalions of the Middlesex Regiment were raised as the 1st and 2nd Football Battalions, initially largely recruiting from professional and amateur footballers. Much of the Heart's team joined up en masse, and were subsequently joined by many supporters. Walter Tull, one of the first black pro players became the first black infantry officer in the British Army during the course of the war (strictly speaking he was mixed race). If the players are (made) aware of this then great, if they are merely wearing the poppy because they feel they have to, not so good.

Poppy bling does seem to be on the increase, the sparkly poppies on Strictly are ridiculous and seem to me to rather miss the point. The papers today reported on "designer" poppies originally sold with some percentage going to RBL, now changing hands on eBay for substantially more than the original price

[Norfolk Born, have you researched your great-uncle's service much? I can give you some pointers if you want]

[Anna]

Going slightly off on a tangent. We have had mention of white poppies. At lunchtime today I saw a man wearing two poppies, one traditional red and the other one - pink. Unfortunately I wasn't quick enough to grab him and ask whether it was a separate tribute to fallen gays and lesbians. Anyone seen/heard of pink poppies??

[Norfolk Born, have you researched your great-uncle's service much? I can give you some pointers if you want]

I think several would like pointers, there is a Who do you think you Are thread somewhere. The problem is that in WW1 so many changed Regiments and were re-numbered. Combine that with a common surname and it becomes almost impossible at times to make a correct connection