May's "ordinary working people"?

[ahinton]

"Just wicked people." Were they born wicked, or did social circumstances have some kind of influence? - social circumstances such as the increased normalisation of xenophobia and racism which, whether you like it or not, accompanies rightward shifts in power among the ruling class such the election of Trump and the rise after Brexit of hard-right ideologues like May and Johnson. I am very far from saying that the eventual effects of Brexit will be either beneficial or deleterious to the people of the UK and the rest of Europe, since it is really too early to tell and the signs in both directions are so complex, but:

(a) what MrGG mentions is a real factor that oughtn't to be given a glib dismissal.
(b) From what I can see, Pulcinella says about higher education is also unarguable, regardless of the ridiculous salaries paid to VCs and university "management" in general.
(c) UK cultural organisations dependent on EU funding will have to close down or move abroad.
(d) Of the countries you mention that are looking to develop trade with the UK, two of them (the USA and China) will be able to force the UK to accept this on terms principally beneficial to them, one (Turkey) is under authoritarian rule and really ought to be kept at arm's length, and "the Caribbean" is hardly going to make the UK rich.

Whichever side of the fence you're on it makes no sense just to pretend these factors aren't real.

I can only agree. What alternative arguments could be put forward over any of these factors that actually make sense, are credible and are based upon genuine research and/or experience?

[ahinton]

That’s you’re opinion, but I don’t agree that Islam is to blame for wickedness.

Sure, but has anyone in this thread suggested that it is?

People don’t have to interpret The Koran that way (and people don’t have to interpret Brexit that way, either).

All sorts of people interpret all sorts of things in all sorts of ways; that doesn't necessarily lend credibility to their interpretations. As to Brexit in particular, people can only interpret what they read, hear and see about it insofar as they might choose to do so and in terms of what actions have yet (not) been taken).

[Lat-Literal]

Research and culture are referred to briefly here: eg Horizon 2020, ERASMUS etc, the Labour London Mayor's inputs into discussions on employment in "culture". There is also an addressing of concerns re Scotland and Northern Ireland with an undertaking to the Scottish people but not the Scottish Government. l think the session is very educational and would recommend it to anyone who wants to gain a perspective beyond the media presentation. I am both impressed by and grateful to Davis. The work he has put in to date is absolutely extraordinary. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind he is doing his utmost to get the best for Britain. I just hope at 68 his health holds up for the next two years:

Exiting the EU Select Committee

Recorded coverage of the Exiting the European Union select committee session on the UK's negotiating objectives

15 March 2017

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08lbgn5 (Current live broadcast link - now ended)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...e-eu-committee (Full recording on I-Player)

[french frank]

A poster thought better of his post and requested it be deleted. Subsequent post which quoted it similarly deleted.

[P. G. Tipps]

"The Catholic Church’s wooing of the SNP started when Cardinal Winning clashed with the then Labour Executive over their social liberalism. Winning and many of the other people in charge convinced themselves that the nationalists were going to be more onside on issues like abortion. There was absolutely no evidence that this would ever be the case. Instead, they have been played for useful fools by Salmond et al, whose entryists have done the necessary spade work from within."

The SNP is quick to point out that support for Scottish Nationalism among Catholics is rising - especially among those in their 20s, 30s and 40s - and that significant parts of the group voted to remain in the EU. In contrast, the Scottish Protestant base is aging. But George Galloway grew up in the Irish Catholic community in Dundee and believes Catholics will get a raw deal if the Scots vote to break up the United Kingdom. He was also for Brexit - and the polar opposite to right wing.

I personally expect in the event of a second Scottish referendum British intelligence will have a bigger role. That is what I mean by a real revolution. A part of its role will be to show to Scottish Catholics that they have more in common with the social conservatism in other groups than they do with a liberal SNP/EU. The threat of pulling Britain apart is now so great the obvious antagonisms between many liberal Protestants and Catholics in Scotland cannot be covered over as last time.

The message to Sturgeon is clear - you try to turn Britain into a permanent war zone and we will respond to that aggression by turning Scotland into a place where your religious differences are made more acute. That is, in a campaign that most of Britain doesn't want. Of course, to avoid that disruption which may well be irreversible and to maintain liberal stances on abortion etc, the SNP can always think again. If it doesn't Scotland could be facing a future of the starkest sectarian divisions.

Within 15 Years of Scottish Independence:

50% non white in Scottish towns and villages; National Parks hacked to pieces by US oil; and a 1970s style animosity between liberal Protestants and Catholics. That is the main part of the campaign. Plus no trading arrangements that would be better than if Scotland remained a part of Britain - or indeed trading arrangements better than with any other country or Wales will want the same. Plus the paying of a sum of money that out of the blue is supposedly owed to us before any formal detachment. Plus there is no way back.

We will need to be as unhelpful to the SNP as the EU is now being to Britain.

Scoxit is Scoxit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-39315683 :smiley:

:smiley:

The growing support for the SNP amongst Catholics can simply be explained by the collapse of Labour in Scotland which had previously been its major base. The Scottish Conservative & Unionist Party used to be very much aligned with Unionists in N. Ireland so would hardly have appealed to Scottish Catholics overwhelmingly of Irish descent particularly in the West Lowlands. However you find Catholics supporting all parties like any other group in society.

It is true the forerunner of the SNP (The National Party of Scotland, of which my own father was a member in his youth) had a strong Catholic influence though this was almost entirely derived from a romantic Highlands and Islands tradition of 'Catholicism' ... you know, Mary Queen of Scots, Bonnie Prince Charlie, Clearances, all that sort of historical stuff. Inevitably it was long seen by most post-war Scots, not least by lowland Catholics, as very much a place for weird, old-fashioned looney folk who still wore kilts and talked about 'independence' which most probably thought only applied to Ireland!

Changed days! There is now a large Scottish 'Catholic' middle-class (at least by historical standards) which has been much imbued by modern secularism and is likely to listen as attentively to Ruth Davidson and Nicola Sturgeon as any Cardinal or Bishop ... I suspect, these days, maybe even more attentively! The current SNP is notable for its appeal to wide sections of the population. It has Hindus, Moslems, Jews, Protestants, Marxists, Atheists, Agnostics and yes, of course, Catholics among its members. It also has support in the immigrant communities and can even boast some Englishmen and women!

However, it also true that a sizeable proportion of the English Tory back-benches who largely triggered this whole wretched Brexit thing also happen to be upper-class Catholics and Anglo-Catholics ... their descendants did rather better in matters of survival than their hapless Scottish co-religionists :winkeye: ... and, of course, the post-war moves towards European union were largely instigated by Catholic Centrists.

So it seems to me Catholics everywhere are just as much politically and socially diverse as the rest of humanity, Lat. And I fail to see why a club should 'help' any disgruntled member who suddenly announces it wants to leave and grossly insults other club members at the same ime.

If I were the man that mattered most at the EU I'd certainly have offered to 'help' by way of two simple and, on this forum, quite unprintable words!

[ahinton]

So it seems to me Catholics everywhere are just as much politically and socially diverse as the rest of humanity

...and some of them might even number among 'May's "ordinary working people"' (remember them?).

And I fail to see why a club should 'help' any disgruntled member who suddenly announces it wants to leave and grossly insults other club members at the same ime.

Fair enough, but some might argue that this applies just as much to the northernmost member of UK vis-à-vis the others of its members as it does to UK itself vis-à-vis the other 27 EU "club" members...

the post-war moves towards European union were largely instigated by Catholic Centrists

"Centrist", Catholic or otherwise, is one of those unhelpful terms whose sole purpose appears to be to encourage divisiveness and to over-simplify groups of people by putting them into what might seems to be convenient pigeon-holes; "Leftists" and "Rightists" likewise. It's all just too simplistic. For example, I am not "of the Left", yet my disappointment with Mr Corbyn's desire to retain Trident only as a non-nuclear vessel is in his reluctance to go as far as wishing that it be scrapped altogether; that's what I would favour, unequivocally, yet such a view might encourage some to assume that I'm well to the left of Mr Corbyn and his Corbynistas. For the record - and remembering a recent exchange between Richard Barrett and MrGongGong - I'd far prefer the cost of building, maintaining and running the wretched thing to be allocated to socially useful things like healthcare, public transport and modern music.

[french frank]

May (ahem) we suppose that self-employed musicians are ordinary working people? If so why have we been hit by a NIC heist? We have no sick pay, no maternity benefit, no holiday pay and no employee pension. Although I personally am already past the NIC-paying stage and receiving my State Retirement Benefit...why a benefit????....I feel very sorry for those still paying it. May I suggest letters to MPs?

This was the OP.

Since the NIC increase has now been ditched, I would suggest this thread could be so likewise.

[teamsaint]

This was the OP.

Since the NIC increase has now been ditched, I would suggest this thread could be so likewise.

we could always have a chat about the Social Care Levy.

I haven't read much about it, but I do have a substantially increased Council tax bill this year with SCL. I see the government has suggested it is an interim measure. If that is the case, and future funding for social care comes from central government, a cynic might see this as a soft way to increase council tax , and that in time the levy will be quietly merged with the full council tax.

http://news.sky.com/story/ministers-approve-6-hike-in-council-tax-bills-to-help-fund-social-care-10695537

I know, I know, Sky News, the Daily Mail with photogenic presenters......

[french frank]

we could always have a chat about the Social Care Levy.

In that case, start a new thread and see what ideological interest there is. I think this one has run its course (and well beyond) and I propose to move it basementwards where it will remain available for those who can put up with the dark.

[ahinton]

In that case, start a new thread and see what ideological interest there is. I think this one has run its course (and well beyond) and I propose to move it basementwards where it will remain available for those who can put up with the dark.

...including those who can see in the dark, presumably!

That said, I'm not sure that this thread (which has undoubtedly wandered off topic frequently) need be only about the NIC hike for the self-employed which, as you rightly note, the government has had the wisdom to ditch; May's "JAMs", for example, are presumably "ordinary working people" or those who would like to be so but cannot find any work or sufficient work or sufficiently well paid work and by no means all of them are self-employed.

[french frank]

That said, I'm not sure that this thread (which has undoubtedly wandered off topic frequently) need be only about the NIC hike for the self-employed which, as you rightly note, the government has had the wisdom to ditch

No, you may discuss what you wish here.