May's "ordinary working people"?

[Pulcinella]

This sort of thing is so sad and it breaks my heart. It’s easy for me to say (my mum, wife and other foreign immediate family members applied for, and have been granted British passports, so they have no worries), but I’d say stay put. There is, and has never been any agenda for repatriation or second class citizenry. But as I said, we’re alright, so it’s easy for me to say.

I have a friend who is Italian and he never got on with the business of getting a British passport. He often said he would. He’s 57 and been here since he was eight, way before the EU. He’s a bit worried, but ultimately believes that he’ll be alright (as I do).

Thank you for your considered and honest reply.

[Richard Barrett]

Wicked things are carried out by wicked people. Not because of Brexit, religion or whatever. They are just wicked people.

"Just wicked people." Were they born wicked, or did social circumstances have some kind of influence? - social circumstances such as the increased normalisation of xenophobia and racism which, whether you like it or not, accompanies rightward shifts in power among the ruling class such the election of Trump and the rise after Brexit of hard-right ideologues like May and Johnson. I am very far from saying that the eventual effects of Brexit will be either beneficial or deleterious to the people of the UK and the rest of Europe, since it is really too early to tell and the signs in both directions are so complex, but:

(a) what MrGG mentions is a real factor that oughtn't to be given a glib dismissal.
(b) From what I can see, Pulcinella says about higher education is also unarguable, regardless of the ridiculous salaries paid to VCs and university "management" in general.
(c) UK cultural organisations dependent on EU funding will have to close down or move abroad.
(d) Of the countries you mention that are looking to develop trade with the UK, two of them (the USA and China) will be able to force the UK to accept this on terms principally beneficial to them, one (Turkey) is under authoritarian rule and really ought to be kept at arm's length, and "the Caribbean" is hardly going to make the UK rich.

Whichever side of the fence you're on it makes no sense just to pretend these factors aren't real.

[Beef Oven!]

"Just wicked people." Were they born wicked, or did social circumstances have some kind of influence? - social circumstances such as the increased normalisation of xenophobia and racism which, whether you like it or not, accompanies rightward shifts in power among the ruling class such the election of Trump and the rise after Brexit of hard-right ideologues like May and Johnson. I am very far from saying that the eventual effects of Brexit will be either beneficial or deleterious to the people of the UK and the rest of Europe, since it is really too early to tell and the signs in both directions are so complex, but:

(a) what MrGG mentions is a real factor that oughtn't to be given a glib dismissal.
(b) From what I can see, Pulcinella says about higher education is also unarguable, regardless of the ridiculous salaries paid to VCs and university "management" in general.
(c) UK cultural organisations dependent on EU funding will have to close down or move abroad.
(d) Of the countries you mention that are looking to develop trade with the UK, two of them (the USA and China) will be able to force the UK to accept this on terms principally beneficial to them, one (Turkey) is under authoritarian rule and really ought to be kept at arm's length, and "the Caribbean" is hardly going to make the UK rich.

Whichever side of the fence you're on it makes no sense just to pretend these factors aren't real.

That’s you’re opinion, but I don’t agree that Islam is to blame for wickedness. People don’t have to interpret The Koran that way (and people don’t have to interpret Brexit that way, either). I don’t know any more than you do, the answer to the nature/nurture question.

[french frank]

There have been complaints about certain posts and requests to put an end to the discussion. I feel there are serious points still to be made, but there is an option of removing it now (given the direction it's taken) to the old referendum thread - and exclude people who persistently break the House Rules.

[Richard Barrett]

I don’t know any more than you do, the answer to the nature/nurture question.

Probably a little less I think, unless you studied the same subject as me at university, but the precise balance isn't the point: the point is that nurture does play a part in, for example, the rise in hate crimes in the wake of Brexit, although perhaps you'll deny this has taken place at all - one effect of Brexit has been (rightly or wrongly) to give racists and xenophobes the feeling that history is on their side, which can't be anything but emboldening.

[Beef Oven!]

Probably a little less I think, unless you studied the same subject as me at university, but the precise balance isn't the point: the point is that nurture does play a part in, for example, the rise in hate crimes in the wake of Brexit, although perhaps you'll deny this has taken place at all - one effect of Brexit has been (rightly or wrongly) to give racists and xenophobes the feeling that history is on their side, which can't be anything but emboldening.

I don’t think that the subject you studied at university means you know any more about this subject than me, nor does what what I studied at university means that I know more than you about politics economics or philosophy.

But you and I, for example, haven’t been emboldened in that way, have we? Just like many muslims have not been emboldened to treat women and atheists in the way they are sometimes treated.

(Can we perhaps discuss this in more general terms, I am uncomfortable with the way you appear to only want to talk about sexism in relation to, say Trump and racism and xenophobia purely in relation to white European people).

[french frank]

(Can we perhaps discuss this in more general terms, I am uncomfortable with the way you appear to only want to talk about sexism in relation to, say Trump and racism and xenophobia purely in relation to white European people).

You have the option of starting a thread on the Ideas & Theory board.

[Beef Oven!]

You have the option of starting a thread on the Ideas & Theory board.

Did you not mean this for Richard, rather than me?

[Richard Barrett]

You have the option of starting a thread on the Ideas & Theory board.

Thanks but I'd rather not, having found myself drawn into this thread against my better judgement, plus I don't think it's getting anywhere!

[Beef Oven!]

Thanks but I'd rather not, having found myself drawn into this thread against my better judgement, plus I don't think it's getting anywhere!

You 'found yourself drawn into this thread against your better judgement'?

Take responsibility for your own actions.

[french frank]

Did you not mean this for Richard, rather than me?

No, I meant it for you, in response to your: "Can we perhaps discuss this in more general terms" which yet again would depart from the OP.

[Beef Oven!]

No, I meant it for you, in response to your: "Can we perhaps discuss this in more general terms" which yet again would depart from the OP.

Not guilty - MrGG created this part of the discussion and RB wanted to take it up. I’m easy either way. You know me, I’ll talk to anyone.

[P. G. Tipps]

The simple truth from the much-derided Young Timothy ... ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39318822

[Lat-Literal]

"The Catholic Church’s wooing of the SNP started when Cardinal Winning clashed with the then Labour Executive over their social liberalism. Winning and many of the other people in charge convinced themselves that the nationalists were going to be more onside on issues like abortion. There was absolutely no evidence that this would ever be the case. Instead, they have been played for useful fools by Salmond et al, whose entryists have done the necessary spade work from within."

The SNP is quick to point out that support for Scottish Nationalism among Catholics is rising - especially among those in their 20s, 30s and 40s - and that significant parts of the group voted to remain in the EU. In contrast, the Scottish Protestant base is aging. But George Galloway grew up in the Irish Catholic community in Dundee and believes Catholics will get a raw deal if the Scots vote to break up the United Kingdom. He was also for Brexit - and the polar opposite to right wing.

I personally expect in the event of a second Scottish referendum British intelligence will have a bigger role. That is what I mean by a real revolution. A part of its role will be to show to Scottish Catholics that they have more in common with the social conservatism in other groups than they do with a liberal SNP/EU. The threat of pulling Britain apart is now so great the obvious antagonisms between many liberal Protestants and Catholics in Scotland cannot be covered over as last time.

The message to Sturgeon is clear - you try to turn Britain into a permanent war zone and we will respond to that aggression by turning Scotland into a place where your religious differences are made more acute. That is, in a campaign that most of Britain doesn't want. Of course, to avoid that disruption which may well be irreversible and to maintain liberal stances on abortion etc, the SNP can always think again. If it doesn't Scotland could be facing a future of the starkest sectarian divisions.

Within 15 Years of Scottish Independence:

50% non white in Scottish towns and villages; National Parks hacked to pieces by US oil; and a 1970s style animosity between liberal Protestants and Catholics. That is the main part of the campaign. Plus no trading arrangements that would be better than if Scotland remained a part of Britain - or indeed trading arrangements better than with any other country or Wales will want the same. Plus the paying of a sum of money that out of the blue is supposedly owed to us before any formal detachment. Plus there is no way back.

We will need to be as unhelpful to the SNP as the EU is now being to Britain.

Scoxit is Scoxit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-39315683 :smiley:

[french frank]

I personally expect in the event of a second Scottish referendum British intelligence will have a bigger role. That is what I mean by a real revolution. A part of its role will be to show to Scottish Catholics that they have more in common with the social conservatism in other groups than they do with a liberal SNP/EU.

I don't think they need British intelligence for that. They just call in the same team that directed and bankrolled the anti-AV and anti-EU campaigns (and are climate change deniers), and if they use the same tactics that should do it.

Would Scotland be better off outside the UK? I don't know. But there are those who have a vested interest in keeping it inside, that's for sure.