May's "ordinary working people"?

[aeolium]

But one point: it was you who suggested that the referendum had to take place because the signs were that the people wanted it and that the rise of UKIP and their success in the EU elections supported that view. The corollary would be that a referendum should be called on any issue because people wanted it (whether capital punishment or anything else), and that the result of the referendum was binding on the politicians. I disagree. It should be for Parliament to decide when there is a referendum (preferably never in my book) and for Parliament to decide whether it should be binding or not. In this case, David Cameron decided it should be binding: that was not in the referendum Bill, as it was for the Scottish referendum and duly voted on.

No, I actually said that I thought referendums were uniquely suitable for constitutional issues; I did not mean to suggest that any issue was suitable to be determined by referendum - as in that Saki spoof story where a community is cured of their interest in participatory democracy by having to vote on every issue under the sun. It was obviously the case that the issue of Scottish independence in 2014 could only be resolved with a referendum, that it wouldn't have been right either for an SNP-dominated Scottish government to unilaterally declare independence without any referendum or for an English-dominated UK government to unilaterally rule it out - and the same circumstances apply today. Parliament did decide that an EU referendum would happen, but once that decision had been taken whether it was technically advisory or binding was politically irrelevant - what's the point of a referendum in which you ignore the result?

What I think has partly weakened the EU case, not just here but elsewhere in Europe, has been the persistent attempt to shut down debate or criticism about its policies and its direction. This was shown in the few referendums that took place on treaty changes which, far from persuading the EU politicians that there might be something in the policy or direction of travel that people were unhappy with, simply decided them against having any more treaty changes, so that uncomfortable referendum results could be avoided. The European elections of 2014 suggested that all was not well, with Eurosceptic parties coming top in two major countries, but again there was no reflection or attempt to engage with those discontented or critical. That is not the way to take people with you and the result has been the rise of populist, nationalist parties and the collapse, or partial collapse of centrist parties. I don't think this process will stop, unless there is a fundamental change of approach.

[teamsaint]

Precisely. Even though we haven't left, and remain a full member of the EU, the pound has crashed and industries and financial institutions are preparing to move out of the UK.

this is far from the actuality.
The pound is at more or less normal long term levels, the FT is at an all time high, Toyota have just announced a major investment at Derby, and Nissan are talking quite positively about their future in Sunderland.
Not everything in the economic garden is rosy, but exports are doing well, tourism will have a good year, and the government will protect the city.

What is really needed is some positivity about the opportunities, as well as realism about the very real challenges.

Actually, going back to exchange rates (Zzzzzzz) what needs much closer attention IMO is the long term Euro /Dollar rate, which is indicative of the weakness generally of the economies of europe, in terms of growth.

[Beef Oven!]

what's the point of a referendum in which you ignore the result?

You need to clarify what you mean by 'ignore the vote’.

I said directly after the outcome that the referendum should be used as evidence of the UK’s fundamental dissatisfaction with the way the EU operates, and to get around the table with our EU partners and thrash out reform.

This would assume that EU power-holders were both committed to the EU for reasons other than their own benefit, plus an understanding that the UK’s withdrawal is an existential threat.

[gurnemanz]

industries and financial institutions are preparing to move out of the UK.

... also individual people - EU citizens placed in an uncertain situation, who now feel unwelcome here, and English people who prefer not to be a part of the unpalatable, chaotic, divided and intolerant New Britain which Brexit has engendered.

[Pulcinella]

How do you know?
We haven't Brexited yet?

Apologies for typo (though I don't think that I've been misunderstood).
Indeed we haven't Brexited yet, but as Alpie points out, we may well have as far as some aspects are concerned.
The friends I have might not be 'ordinary working people' (two are vice chancellors of universities for example, another is a consultant anaesthetist) but they are all deeply concerned about the impact on the organisations that they work in.

Should have read

How do you know?
We haven't Brexited yet!

[Beef Oven!]

this is far from the actuality.
the pound is at more or less normal long term levels, the FT is at an all time high, Toyota have just announced a major investment at Derby, and Nissan are talking quite positively about their future in Sunderland.
Not everything in the economic garden is rosy, but exports are doing well, tourism will have a good year, and the government will protect the city.

What is really needed is some positivity about the opportunities, as well as realism about the very real challenges,

USA, India, China, New Zealand, Australia, The Caribbean, Turkey, to name only seven, are looking to develop trade with us.

You have to interpret what EA is saying. He’s saying he didn’t like the result.

[MrGongGong]

What is really needed is some positivity about the opportunities, .

Yeah right, i'm really looking forward to not being able to work in the rest of the EU without excessive hassle
i'm really looking forward to more of the musicians I regularly work with leaving the UK because of this
I'm really looking forward to the young musicians of this country no longer being able to play in the ECYO
I'm really looking forward to the UK no longer being a part of the pan European cultural and academic projects

and so on and so on


It's going to be great :yikes:

[MrGongGong]

I'm also really enjoying some of my friends feeling unsafe on the streets and having abuse thrown at them by people emboldened by the idea that all our woes are to do with people who have a different heritage.

Thanks :yikes:

[ahinton]

Because in the end, voters stuck with their beliefs. The remain voters did not vote for what they thought was best for their pocket (they have told us loud and long why the want to remain) and the leavers, we are told, voted because we are racist, nationalist and ignorant.

Voters might well have stuck with their beliefs but all too many of them on both sides - presumably including May's "ordinary working people", if such there be (and they existed before May became PM) - were in possession of insufficient information upon which to base at least some of those beliefs.

The prospect that all Remain supporters throughout UK and all Leave ditto voted as they did for all the same reasons is in any case utterly untenable.

[Beef Oven!]

Apologies for typo (though I don't think that I've been misunderstood).
Indeed we haven't Brexited yet, but as Alpie points out, we may well have as far as some aspects are concerned.
The friends I have might not be 'ordinary working people' (two are vice chancellors of universities for example, another is a consultant anaesthetist) but they are all deeply concerned about the impact on the organisations that they work in.

Should have read

How do you know?
We haven't Brexited yet!

The vice chancellors of Universities are deeply concerned? Of course they are! It’s their gravy train! They’ve never had it so good. :laugh:

[ahinton]

The vice chancellors of Universities are deeply concerned? Of course they are! It’s their gravy train! They’ve never had it so good. :laugh:

And do you believe that the same applies to consultant anæsthetists? Or orchestral conductors? Or...?...

[Beef Oven!]

I'm also really enjoying some of my friends feeling unsafe on the streets and having abuse thrown at them by people emboldened by the idea that all our woes are to do with people who have a different heritage.

Do you blame Islam for how French women feel in parts of France, too?

Wicked things are carried out by wicked people. Not because of Brexit, religion or whatever. They are just wicked people.

[Pulcinella]

The vice chancellors of Universities are deeply concerned? Of course they are! It’s their gravy train! They’ve never had it so good. :laugh:

They at least are concerned about future funding and staffing issues, regardless of how well they themselves are rewarded for their efforts. The government assurances of funding have not been sufficient to attract and retain research staff.
This is already happening, Beefy, and I for one am very sad about it indeed.
One of my new neighbours is a faculty member here in York (Music department); he is German, and is now understandably concerned about his new house purchase. He may have a permanent position on the faculty but what sway will that hold if visa restrictions come in? So what advice would you offer him and his family?

[teamsaint]

Yeah right, i'm really looking forward to not being able to work in the rest of the EU without excessive hassle
i'm really looking forward to more of the musicians I regularly work with leaving the UK because of this
I'm really looking forward to the young musicians of this country no longer being able to play in the ECYO
I'm really looking forward to the UK no longer being a part of the pan European cultural and academic projects

and so on and so on


It's going to be great :yikes:

It is a pity you quote me SO selectively, and don't actually then discuss the points I was making. There was a balance in my post that you fail to recognise.

[Beef Oven!]

One of my new neighbours is a faculty member here in York (Music department); he is German, and is now understandably concerned about his new house purchase. He may have a permanent position on the faculty but what sway will that hold if visa restrictions come in? So what advice would you offer him and his family?

This sort of thing is so sad and it breaks my heart. It’s easy for me to say (my mum, wife and other foreign immediate family members applied for, and have been granted British passports, so they have no worries), but I’d say stay put. There is, and has never been any agenda for repatriation or second class citizenry. But as I said, we’re alright, so it’s easy for me to say.

I have a friend who is Italian and he never got on with the business of getting a British passport. He often said he would. He’s 57 and been here since he was eight, way before the EU. He’s a bit worried, but ultimately believes that he’ll be alright (as I do).