May's "ordinary working people"?

[teamsaint]

I prefer Minerva - it’s Italian, as is my motherland. I’m an incurable Europhile.

Tesco Highland Spring.

It's British.

[ardcarp]

Try this. It's Breton. (And mercifully wrested back from Nestle.)

http://www.foodbev.com/news/socit-des-eaux-minrales-dogeu-acquires-p/

[teamsaint]

all those environmentally unfriendly water miles.......:whistle:

Actually, that probably is a bit of a bad thing, as it goes.

[Beef Oven!]

Tesco Highland Spring.

It's British.

I like Sainsbury’s Highland Spring with my whisky. But like most things, my taste is very European.

But hats off to all those Brits in here that venture farther afield. We Europeans appreciate it. :ok:

[Lat-Literal]

Tap water even though I have traced the local supplier to Halliburton and made that point known to the powers that be. They are nervous about that research and what I have identified as possible implications. Hence their silence. There is something unusually psychological about what is taking place in politics now. That is because it runs very close to notions of identity and specifically in Britain it organises in three distinct, cracked ways. I have tried to look at the phenomenon to comprehend it in that way but have decided Freud and Jung are not the answers. Instead, I am increasingly tempted by the idea anti-frackers need to smash through the lot to get an independent Britain as the voters decided.

We can drive a massive drill between the lukewarm position of SNP (for which read about to cave in to US oil companies at any moment) and the to be frank wet Scottish Greens. Lots of lovely pictures of the Scottish countryside ruined for all time. I suspect Ms Sturgeon's cross party majority will crumble. Then the EU. Pathetic on the same issue. Would let the entire continent be undermined in current legislation. Highly symbolic. We should get them on that point to ensure cohesion, whatever Liam Fox thinks. Then all it needs is for an unholy alliance of the dongas and the blue rinse brigade in Sussex who put an end to the shocking treatment of animals exported from Newhaven and the British land is ours.

Thanks. :smiley:

[P. G. Tipps]

Slightly off-topic I know, and deeply apologise accordingly, but there was some talk recently among some Brexiteer MPs of threatening to abolish the House of Lords if it 'dared to stand in the way of the people'. Yes the very same folk, you know those staunch patriots. who only a few months ago were so keen to restore the UK Parliament's 'sovereignty'!

I watched some of the EU Debate in the Lords. It was a complete eye-opener. Well dressed ladies (n.b. you disrespectful and slovenly scruffs in 'the other place'!) and gentlemen (okay, lords!) who treated the place and occasion with respect and who actually appeared to know what they were talking about. Intelligent folk who have been about in the real world, in all walks of life, and who were prepared to listen to opposing views without bawling and shouting like hysterical toddlers.

I was left at the end feeling that if one of Her Majesty's Houses had to go it would be much better for the country if it were the thoroughly depressing Commons. The only problem would be who should appoint the Lords 'n' Ladies in the first place as clearly the people are not fit to decide that for themselves. Maybe Ma'am, for example ... ?

That unusual revolutionary sentiment on my part was strongly reinforced yesterday when I heard that, according to a poll in the DT, approx two thirds of British voters apparently believe that the issue of UK membership of the EU is more important than Scottish Independence, in other words the actual survival of the UK itself. Now spot the slight flaw in that argument ... :laugh:

So it appears that, in displaying my innate generosity of spirit, I grossly over-estimated the intelligence of some of those who voted at the Referendum, by naively believing they couldn't possibly have voted in the knowledge that the very existence of their country was at stake.

If the poll is in any way accurate it appears 'the people' are even more damn stupid than I had ever thought possible!

[Lat-Literal]

Slightly off-topic I know, and deeply apologise accordingly, but there was some talk recently among some Brexiteer MPs of threatening to abolish the House of Lords if it 'dared to stand in the way of the people'. Yes the very same folk, you know those staunch patriots. who only a few months ago were so keen to restore the UK Parliament's 'sovereignty'!

I watched some of the EU Debate in the Lords. It was a complete eye-opener. Well dressed ladies (n.b. you disrespectful and slovenly scruffs in 'the other place'!) and gentlemen (okay, lords!) who treated the place and occasion with respect and who actually appeared to know what they were talking about. Intelligent folk who have been about in the real world, in all walks of life, and who were prepared to listen to opposing views without bawling and shouting like hysterical toddlers.

I was left at the end feeling that if one of Her Majesty's Houses had to go it would be much better for the country if it were the thoroughly depressing Commons. The only problem would be who should appoint the Lords 'n' Ladies in the first place as clearly the people are not fit to decide that for themselves. Maybe Ma'am, for example ... ?

That unusual revolutionary sentiment on my part was strongly reinforced yesterday when I heard that, according to a poll in the DT, approx two thirds of British voters apparently believe that the issue of UK membership of the EU is more important than Scottish Independence, in other words the actual survival of the UK itself. Now spot the slight flaw in that argument ... :laugh:

So it appears that, in displaying my innate generosity of spirit, I grossly over-estimated the intelligence of some of those who voted at the Referendum, by naively believing they couldn't possibly have voted in the knowledge that the very existence of their country was at stake.

If the poll is in any way accurate it appears 'the people' are even more damn stupid than I had ever thought possible!

It was at stake because the English were being held to ransom by the SNP. They are playing a revolutionary game. We can do better than that and give them a real one along the lines I've set out. There is to be no friendliness this time. It's all out war. I'm absolutely sick of them. The two faced nature of it is beyond belief. And you are not being in the slightest bit revolutionary in advocating preference to the House of Lords. Merely undemocratic. Ditto all of the people still wailing about the EU outcome for ever more. Your ideals, anyone's ideals mean nothing compared with British democracy. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. As for the oft mentioned partnership of equals. What partnership and what equals? This is one Britain. There is no partnership in one state by definition. If any part of it feels that it is unequal then clearly it has a problem. But maybe while retaining Britain we should build a new Hadrian's Wall. That will keep the bagpipes out. They are horrendous when accompanied by the sabre rattling we are putting up with now. This is just the start.

(If a soft approach is adopted, Scotland will be like Belfast - that is not my preferred option but it is my preferred option over the break up of the country into which I was born)

[jayne lee wilson]

It was at stake because the English were being held to ransom by the SNP. They are playing a revolutionary game. We can do better than that and give them a real one along the lines I've set out. There is to be no friendliness this time. It's all out war. I'm absolutely sick of them. The two faced nature of it is beyond belief. And you are not being in the slightest bit revolutionary in advocating preference to the House of Lords. Merely undemocratic. Ditto all of the people still wailing about the EU outcome for ever more. Your ideals, anyone's ideals mean nothing compared with British democracy. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. As for the oft mentioned partnership of equals. What partnership and what equals? This is one Britain. There is no partnership in one state by definition. If any part of it feels that it is unequal then clearly it has a problem. But maybe while retaining Britain we should build a new Hadrian's Wall. That will keep the bagpipes out. They are horrendous when accompanied by the sabre rattling we are putting up with now. This is just the start.

(If a soft approach is adopted, Scotland will be like Belfast - that is not my preferred option but it is my preferred option over the break up of the country into which I was born)

You said earlier that those who voted to remain in Europe should "get in line" behind the decision to leave (in practice this means backing the Tory Right Hijackers into "hard Brexit" behind May and above all, supporting Paul Dacre and his associates at the Telegraph, Express and Times); now you say it is undemocratic to keep " wailing about the outcome", denying us our "ideals" in the face of your view of British Democracy, apparently self-defined as this "once-in-a-generation" plebiscite. But democracy is THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT. BEING ALLOWED TO KEEP AND EXPRESS YOUR IDEALS, campaigning for them, NOT getting in line behind a decision one detests and feels to be fundamentally mistaken,, but speaking out against it, repeatedly, campaigning against it always , trying to change it or at the very least the conditions of its execution. Those freedoms are the essence of democracy wherever it is claimed to operate.

Daniel Hannan, so-called "Godfather of Brexit" said during the campaign that no-one intended to exit the single market. Boris Johnson and others said just the same. Now, vote won, that hard Brexit, in pursuit of some WTO-rules, piratical tax-haven free-trading is all he and his Rees-Moggs, Foxes, Farages and other absurd pretenders to some lost ideal of sovereignty and imaginary self-rule seem to be accelerating toward. And on a cynically, hypocritically invoked no-turning-back-once-in-a-lifetime mandate from the "British People", who were never offered any such detail of choice.
But it's certainly not the Scottish or Northern Irish People, not Mancunians or Liverpudlians. And we will go on, democratically, making a great big noise about that.

All these Tory Right tactics - invoking the "generational" nature of the referendum; the supposed "irreversibility" of the vote or the "impossibility" of another, better informed referendum on the deal itself; trying repeatedly to deny the democratically-elected Commons a free vote on the Brexit deal the Tory negotiators arrive at, even challenging the very principle in the High Court (cast as "enemies of the people" by the Right's increasingly dissent-denying press); or denying Scotland another Independence Referendum in what are dramatically changed conditions of UK Union...
These are all revealing of the same thing: sheer insecurity in their confidence that the Brexit vote, the decision itself, and its imminent execution (dragged out over how many years of legal wrangling, cultural damage and financial penalty) are anything but brittle, unsafe, deeply misled, ill-informed and carried out with neither political cunning nor intelligence, by "The People" or the Tory Government.

Their panic grows and their vision narrows - fists cocked across the channel and our own UK borders, under more servile control by their instinctively Europhobic, sovereignty-obessed, fanatically defensive press than ever.

[Lat-Literal]

You said earlier that those who voted to remain in Europe should "get in line" behind the decision to leave (in practice this means backing the Tory Right Hijackers into "hard Brexit" behind May and above all, supporting Paul Dacre and his associates at the Telegraph, Express and Times); now you say it is undemocratic to keep " wailing about the outcome", denying us our "ideals" in the face of your view of British Democracy, apparently self-defined as this "once-in-a-generation" plebiscite. But democracy is THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT. BEING ALLOWED TO KEEP AND EXPRESS YOUR IDEALS, campaigning for them, NOT getting in line behind a decision one detests and feels to be fundamentally mistaken,, but speaking out against it, repeatedly, campaigning against it always , trying to change it or at the very least the conditions of its execution. Those freedoms are the essence of democracy wherever it is claimed to operate.

Daniel Hannan, so-called "Godfather of Brexit" said during the campaign that no-one intended to exit the single market. Boris Johnson and others said just the same. Now, vote won, that hard Brexit, in pursuit of some WTO-rules, piratical tax-haven free-trading is all he and his Rees-Moggs, Foxes, Farages and other absurd pretenders to some lost ideal of sovereignty and imaginary self-rule seem to be accelerating toward. And on a cynically, hypocritically invoked no-turning-back-once-in-a-lifetime mandate from the "British People", who were never offered any such detail of choice.
But it's certainly not the Scottish or Northern Irish People, not Mancunians or Liverpudlians. And we will go on, democratically, making a great big noise about that.

All these Tory Right tactics - invoking the "generational" nature of the referendum; the supposed "irreversibility" of the vote or the "impossibility" of another, better informed referendum on the deal itself; trying repeatedly to deny the democratically-elected Commons a free vote on the Brexit deal the Tory negotiators arrive at, even challenging the very principle in the High Court (cast as "enemies of the people" by the Right's increasingly dissent-denying press); or denying Scotland another Independence Referendum in what are dramatically changed conditions of UK Union...
These are all revealing of the same thing: sheer insecurity in their confidence that the Brexit vote, the decision itself, and its imminent execution (dragged out over how many years of legal wrangling, cultural damage and financial penalty) are brittle, changeable, deeply unsafe, ill-informed and carried out with neither political cunning nor intelligence, by "The People" or the Tory Government.

Their panic grows and their vision narrows - fists cocked across the channel and our own UK borders, under more servile control by their instinctively Europhobic, sovereignty-obessed, fanatically defensive press than ever.

In practice, getting in line would mean three cheers from Tony Benn wherever he may be - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0wFii8klNg. Whoever other than Benn favours what has transpired is as relevant as you want to make them but they are not any sort of definition of what has transpired. In essence, hard brexit is what it is and not in any one place on the political spectrum. There is no question here of denying people their ideals. But I put forward one main suggestion on the EU referendum. It was that individual ideals must by necessity be secondary to a majority vote in a referendum that was provided by an elected Government based on a manifesto pledge. You and others may disagree with it only to the point where it doesn't represent obstruction to governance and indeed national security. That disagreement is constrained by the fact that the vast majority of elected MPs are moving forward and hence unwilling to provide official political opposition in a way that a few might wish. Had we had a referendum on PR and not AV it might have been different.

It may have been that the EU referendum was called by someone a ""once-in-a-generation" plebiscite". I don't recall it. What was made crystal clear by the British Government was that there would be no chance for turning back from any decision to leave via further referendums. The EU told Cameron and Clegg that would be the case and Cameron, Clegg and the leaders of all other parties told the British electorate. Many will have voted on that basis and the legitimacy of the outcome is dependent on it. What we were all told by the SNP was that the Scottish referendum would be once in a generation. Possibly on that point then you and they are confused - or possibly it is just further distortion in their case.

Now that you are choosing to pick out non national parts of the country as well as Scotland and Northern Ireland, that is a clear invitation for me to do the same. Banff and Buchan voted for Brexit. So did many other areas of Scotland including many in the Western Isles. As for Manchester, you define it in the narrowest way to support your cause. Wigan, Tameside, Oldham, Rochdale, Bolton, Salford, Bury and Cheshire East all voted to leave the EU. Only Central Manchester, Stockport and Trafford voted to remain. In the Liverpool area, St Helens and Halton also voted for Brexit. Some areas were 50/50. In London, Barking/Dagenham, Bexley, Havering and Hillingdon were among the areas wishing to leave.

There is no hard Brexit. There may well be no hard Brexit. Absolutely no one knows yet. Consequently quite a lot of what you say in an oddly tabloid style in places could well be described as fake news. There is also no invoking of any "generational" nature of the referendum other than on what was the Remain side. That point looks rather different too when considered in terms of socio-economic background. The youth who voted for Brexit do not have a Gina Miller. Currently, though, the Highlands are British more than Scottish.

[Beef Oven!]

....... those who voted to remain in Europe should "get in line" behind the decision to leave (in practice this means backing the Tory Right Hijackers into "hard Brexit" behind May and above all, supporting Paul Dacre and his associates at the Telegraph, Express and Times)

Jayne, there has been no hijack. It was always the case that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market.

We all knew what we were voting for.

Clean Brexit is what the people voted for and clean Brexit must be delivered.

Have you forgotten what was said during the campaign?

Here’s a reminder of what the Remainers said, followed by what the Brexiters said during the campaign ........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fDn0MvcHQ4

[ahinton]

Of course she does, but as Prime Minister and head of the Queen’s Government, she must do the will of the people and get us out - à toute vitesse! The people have spoken!

As I mentioned, some of them have and many of them didn't know what they were speaking about. Anway, perhaps we'll have a General Election soon. I voted Remain, but I do not pretend that I knew enough about the subject at the time.

[MrGongGong]

As I mentioned, some of them have and many of them didn't know what they were speaking about. Anway, perhaps we'll have a General Election soon. I voted Remain, but I do not pretend that I knew enough about the subject at the time.

That's ok because you know we shouldn't trust "elites"
So next time I want to find out about how to conduct I'll ask the postman rather than Tony Pappano or Susanna Mälkki.:yikes:

[teamsaint]

Economics is the no 1 issue in almost all general elections.
Very few of us understand even undergraduate theoretical macroeconomics, the sort of thing on which policy is based, but we are still entrusted to vote on these matters. Even ( especially?) the economists don't agree, or fully understand every aspect of economics.
We all have to make judgements based on imperfect understanding, or informed by opinion rather than completely objective " fact".
And that includes MPs, who of course are making decisions with a powerful political bias, and often as influence by the whip as objective reasoning.

[Beef Oven!]

That's ok because you know we shouldn't trust "elites"
So next time I want to find out about how to conduct I'll ask the postman rather than Tony Pappano or Susanna Mälkki.:yikes:

Don’t confuse expertise with "experts" and you’ll be fine.

[MrGongGong]

Economics is the no 1 issue in almost all general elections.
.

I'm not sure of this at all
I heard a very interesting interview on R4 a few weeks ago (can't remember the exact details, sorry) with an ex ambassador from the UK to another EU country who was saying how folks in the UK often make the mistake of thinking that everything is about economics and trade.

I think those in politics like to tell us that if we vote "for" them we will be financially better off and many people fall for this putting their own self interest above others which IMV is rather sad.