May's "ordinary working people"?

[Lat-Literal]

We can do nothing about global economics, whatever we do the same men (and they are almost all men) will be in charge of things
We can do something about culture
But people prefer soap operas

Yes - and that is the key reason why neither option or indeed anything in between was/is ever likely to be positive.

Plus it isn't all about two parties - "the EU" and Britain:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/29/latvia-fights-against-the-great-eu-exodus/

I'm not convinced that the EU's freedom of movement is freedom of movement. If you dangle a carrot while hiding the mould then people aren't exactly forced to move towards it but they may well be manipulated towards it. It quickly seeps into the culture. "She's moving there, you would be a fool to stay". And then when there has been a substantial exodus, the process speeds up - "let's get out of this place - there is no future here". The irony being that then on the point of arrival there is no future at the destination either.

[ahinton]

Anyway, we now have the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act. So this’ll all be a thing of the past.

Unless the "many a slip" principle kicks in at some point for any number of possible reasons and throws a spanner into the works (the Irish question, the Scottish question, negotiating woes, the break-up of EU while UK's in the process of attempting to leave it, &c.); in this instance, it ain't (gonna be) over until the thin lady (May) sings what will likely be a lament...

[Richard Barrett]

why neither option or indeed anything in between was/is ever likely to be positive

Exactly. Like millions of people I'm angry about Brexit. But I would have been just as angry about Bremain.

[ahinton]

Yes - and that is the key reason why neither option or indeed anything in between was/is ever likely to be positive.

Plus it isn't all about two parties - "the EU" and Britain:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/29/latvia-fights-against-the-great-eu-exodus/

I'm not convinced that the EU's freedom of movement is freedom of movement. If you dangle a carrot while hiding the mould then people aren't exactly forced to move towards it but they may well be manipulated towards it. It quickly seeps into the culture. "She's moving there, you would be a fool to stay". And then when there has been a substantial exodus, the process speeds up - "let's get out of this place - there is no future here". The irony being that then on the point of arrival there is no future at the destination either.

Interesting link - and to an article published before the referendum...

[Lat-Literal]

Exactly. Like millions of people I'm angry about Brexit. But I would have been just as angry about Bremain.

Yes quite. Brexit is a direction. The EU can often appear static but it is also a direction because it is always changing on the basis of ideological goals. What we do know from experience is what it looks like on the Bremain Road so far as we have all travelled it. I really don't know where the references to socialism come in because it is all under multinational influence. There are then two questions. One, were people happy with being on that road? I don't think most people were happy post 2007/8 in general. Two, do they feel that it will be much better further down the road wherever that might be? No one in Britain ever addresses that point positively. Where are the people even on the Bremain side who say that it would be wonderful if there were 40 rather than 28 or we had a European army? Mostly they argue against those things, saying they are unlikely to happen.

Interesting link - and to an article published before the referendum...

A good point.

[french frank]

For me, the outcome is 7 billion euros that can be found.

Correct. That is what the outcome is for you. But you have invented the 7 billion euros, and keep repeating the number because it's a well-known way to get an idea accepted, even if erroneous. There is no lost/wasted 7 billion euros.

For me, on the other hand, this has never been about money. It's about shared culture, cooperation with friendly nations on as many fronts as possible, protection of citizens' rights, the right to free movement, the environment …

But I'm grateful to team for querying the 2% materiality threshold as this has prompted me to find out more about it. In auditing it's based on perceived risk levels - that is, the possibility of errors occurring. It has nothing to do with tax collection where individuals must declare all income and the HMRC is legally bound to ensure that they do. However, this is useful:

"The Court of Auditors

In considering the significance of errors detected during the audit, it is important to bear three points in mind. First, errors cannot be equated to fraud, which the ECA suspects in only a small number of cases. Second, the unnecessary complexity of the rules governing certain EU spending programs increases the risk of non-compliance, whether accidental or deliberate. For this reason, the ECA has recommended the simplification of rules and regulations, and a streamlining of internal controls [and this is under way - ff]. Finally, efforts to avoid errors are subject to diminishing returns: zero risk implies zero activity."

'External Scrutiny Institutions', Ian Harden, Ch 27, The Oxford Handbook of the European Union, edd Jones, Menan & Weatherill, p382.

So, that 2% could be lowered but would be subject to 'diminishing returns'. The inherent risk level of error is estimated to attract a necessary 2% error level.

For you, the boxes have been ticked. I don’t think everything is alright, but you do (I’m assuming what you think about this, because 'though I've asked you several times, you won't tell us what you think about this).

I'm bewildered - I gave you a 6-point answer to what I thought you were asking for.

[teamsaint]

well the diminishing returns is interesting , ( certainly to somebody not well versed in this), and one can see the logic of not endlessly chasing ever smaller returns.
However, 2% might reflect somebody's idea of the risk, but you really could write the criteria and draw the line however you wanted. the EU, if it was really confident in its procedures, could surely draw the line much lower, say at the levels for corporations with similar sized revenues. This would be good both for finance, and for confidence in the institution.
And in any case the error rate is more than double the threshold. More rigour must surely be a good thing, actually both for the EU and for its critics.

[Beef Oven!]

I'm bewildered

You and me both.

Off to the gymnasium and then my usual voluntary work, so I’ll reply later.

[Serial_Apologist]

He who so frequently writes on here accusing others of setting up straw men comes up with the notion of socialists profligate with others' money!

I wonder where they are. It seems to me most of them are like me, having little to do with others' money, or like Corbyn in at best feeling ambivalent about the Brexit/Remain option, for whose honesty he was pilloried in such oh-so-socialist press as the Guardian and Miror for not providing leadership!

[Beef Oven!]

He who so frequently writes on here accusing others of setting up straw men comes up with the notion of socialists profligate with others' money!

I wonder where they are. It seems to me most of them are like me, having little to do with others' money, or like Corbyn in at best feeling ambivalent about the Brexit/Remain option, for whose honesty he was pilloried in such oh-so-socialist press as the Guardian and Miror for not providing leadership!

Ah, the passive-aggressive lurker is back.

[ahinton]

Ah, the passive-aggressive lurker is back.

Where?

[Richard Barrett]

the notion of socialists profligate with others' money!

Just give us a chance and we'll spend the lot of it, on things like health care, public transport and modern music.

[ahinton]

Just give us a chance and we'll spend the lot of it, on things like health care, public transport and modern music.

In any particular order?

[MrGongGong]

In any particular order?

Have you seen how expensive Genelec and ATC loudspeakers are?

[Lat-Literal]

Anyhow:

The national plan for food, farming and fisheries
The Coffee Shop policy to encourage global chains to be replaced by independents
The Paypal style system for service payments to be made to the self-employed

Next:

Given that the UN is to some extent under attack from the US, we need an immediate detailed national analysis of all areas in which EU is a member of UN committees and seek to boost our involvement there. I do know from experience that this can rein in EU tendencies to duplicate or divert from where the UN has taken the lead for decades, especially in Europe (UN ECE etc). Some areas are environmental. What is it about these strategies which makes me think that actually none are being done during all the ongoing bun fights?

Oh, I know.....it's because the preference is for ongoing bun fights.