May's "ordinary working people"?

[Lat-Literal]

??? I wouldn't describe it as 'good leadership' either, but it was 'politics'. Hammond probably did read the election commitment in too literal a way, May as well. But when they could see the policy wasn't carrying their own party with it, they had no option but a U-turn. 'Hanging on to power' doesn't come into it: if the budget had been voted down and there had been a vote of confidence, the government would have won comfortably. Not good leadership - just damage control.

But skipping nimbly away from any whiff of party politics :smiley: if you look purely at how government expenditure is allocated, it's 'obvious' [NB quotes] cuts must be made in welfare and health, followed by state pensions and education, since between them they account for approaching three quarters of all government spending. Abolish all defence spending and divide the savings between those four and they don't get a lot each. Meanwhile the other quarter of government spending is shared between Transport, Public Order and safety, Business and Industry, Environment, Culture, Housing, Overseas aid, national debt (that's slightly more than defence spending) - they even manage a smidgeon for our contribution to the EU which, if discontinued, would only make a real difference to the very smallest budgets - but to Welfare and Health, less than peanuts.

Mind you, higher tax revenues might ease things …

Interesting figures which led to a lengthy pause for thinking.

When self-employed people who were not against the NIC increase pointed out that its impacts in most cases would be negligible, they were told in a hesitant way by those who opposed it that it still sent out the wrong headline message, ie it was supposedly a disincentive. I have never actually met anyone in 50 odd years who has ceased trading on account of tax increases, let alone NIC increases (the same could not be said of shop rents/rates) but there must have been some. The idea of "the wrong headline messages" is gaining popularity in this Twitter age. Whatever the rights or wrongs of overseas aid, or indeed the amounts involved which may be relatively peanuts, it has long been ring fenced when other vital services were not ring fenced. That has sent out the wrong headline message to many voters in terms of governments' priorities. People have understanding of natural famine. Patience is running out - has run out - when it comes to endless ideological conflict creating huge amounts of harm via war not only here but especially abroad.

I support higher tax revenues. Those who claim taxes are too high either don't recall the 1960s/1970s or do and enjoy playing games. Most people agree that addressing this point starts with ensuring that money at current tax rates is paid. My "coffee shop policy" - a tabloid name for an idea that would go much wider - would slap a massive additional tariff on largely American outfits whose tax is officially above board but clearly out of sync with recognizable national policy. It would be established with a clear message that they are welcome to return to their origins and that people living in Britain would then have the opportunity to fill the vacuum. The new independent coffee shops, as it were, would be more easily taxed fully and I personally believe that they would pay a slightly better wage. My second policy for ensuring tax is paid is to establish a government equivalent to Paypal which would be required to be used as a secure route by all roaming small businesses for work payment. That would enable sharper central focus and significantly reduce the scope for tax avoidance. If £40 has gone through it in a year then clearly something is wrong. Additionally, I favour modest increases in tax rates but also believe that in the current circumstances this is only likely to occur without pain where internationally agreed. That would require a Davos style conversion and in the immediate term it is just theoretical.

[Lat-Literal]

I was never convinced by the rhetoric on the amount of money going into the EU. Nor have I been convinced by the rhetoric on national debt when I know that it was far worse for several decades following the war. However, I think people who are not hoodwinked about the amounts are still right and actually trying to be responsible to look to slight savings where they can be found. Notwithstanding that payment into the EU also leads to certain benefits, the cost benefit ratio is felt to be deteriorating the larger and more inflated the organisation becomes. There is a sense that financial accountability there is blase - mainly right - and then politically even I have some unease about this country currently being gleefully admonished by the likes of Malta. It is also abundantly clear to me that we with liberal interests in Europe like them rather more than they have ever liked us. That is especially true of the English. It was many, many years ago that the English often took to placing a Scottish flag on their cars so as to get a warm rather than a frosty reception.

I don't believe that it is simply we who are leaving the EU. I believe that the EU left us first. Consequently both sides have long since abandoned the key expectations. One, we didn't want a third world war in Europe. A coming together in the 1970s was the best way of minimising that possibility. Now the EU is a warmonger because it defines itself geopolitically against Russia in a way that it never did before the fall of the iron curtain. Then, it was in other bodies extending further than Europe that defence - so far as it was ever needed - was maintained. Also, Erdogan is actually right about Rutte and I do think that sentiment of his extends further across Europe. The Dutch triggered the jackbooted Nazi coup in Ukraine with cross-party US backing led by its unelected five term President, John McCain. As for immigration, it depends on what you want and how real you might be. At 30,000 a year - EU and Non EU - which was enough to get long-term right wingers hot under the collar but welcomed by the rest of us, the population increases without offspring subsequently produced by 3 million in a hundred years. Under the policy of Mr Blair and Mr Cameron - 300,000 - it increases by 30 million in the same period. That is entirely unsustainable. It would damage this country irrevocably including many arriving here. And the EU in offering no way out of it is now the lifeblood of the rabidly xenophobic.

I suppose I ought to post again that I voted with a very heavy heart for Remain in case anyone thinks the opposite. But - in my humble opinion - there is absolutely no going back!

[MrGongGong]

There is a sense that financial accountability there is blase -

Not wanting to do Politics or even politics
BUT
One of todays tasks is preparing figures and evidence for an EU funded project. In my experience of these things EU funding is more meticulously accounted for than anything from education, arts or other UK institutions. One could argue that far too much money is spend making sure that the money is spent where it is supposed to be going but still people believe that there is no accountability in the EU ?

I guess you can't trust experts :sadface:
so here comes the Einaudi meets Andre Rieu day at the Proms ?

[Lat-Literal]

Not wanting to do Politics or even politics
BUT
One of todays tasks is preparing figures and evidence for an EU funded project. In my experience of these things EU funding is more meticulously accounted for than anything from education, arts or other UK institutions. One could argue that far too much money is spend making sure that the money is spent where it is supposed to be going but still people believe that there is no accountability in the EU ?

I guess you can't trust experts :sadface:
so here comes the Einaudi meets Andre Rieu day at the Proms ?

Yes in a way. I am still waiting for a reply from my MP on the amount of money the Government spends on radio commercials. The FOI response was that the information wasn't available so I raised a Ministerial. As far as I am aware the EU doesn't have a televised budget day. Perhaps it should have someone standing outside Brussels with a case once a year to suggest - or convey - that there is some method. Many people tend to think the accounts weren't signed off for years and large amounts of money went to the Kinnocks.

Frenchfrank's main point was on the very high percentage of money that goes to health, welfare and education. The figure did surprise me and it runs closest to NIC. I think that it is in-work benefits that need to be addressed and that they can only be so by tackling tax avoidance. The taxpayer is footing the bill for those who avoid tax and pay low wages.

[MrGongGong]

Yes in a way. I am still waiting for a reply from my MP on the amount of money the Government spends on radio commercials. The FOI response was that the information wasn't available so I raised a Ministerial. As far as I am aware the EU doesn't have a televised budget day. Perhaps it should have someone standing outside Brussels with a case once a year to suggest - or convey - that there is some method. Many people tend to think the accounts weren't signed off for years and large amounts of money went to the Kinnocks.

Frenchfrank's main point was on the very high percentage of money that goes to health, welfare and education. The figure did surprise me and obviously that runs closest to the NIC etc question. I think that it is in work benefits that need to be addressed and that they can only be so by tackling tax avoidance.

People believe all sorts of B*llsh*t partly because the like a good "story" with interesting "characters"

"In work benefits" are, of course, one way that people who pay tax fund companies who don't pay decent wages.
I'd rather my tax went on Education, Social Care, Well being and preventing people staving to death in Somalia than supporting bad employers :sadface:

[Lat-Literal]

People believe all sorts of B*llsh*t partly because the like a good "story" with interesting "characters"

"In work benefits" are, of course, one way that people who pay tax fund companies who don't pay decent wages.
I'd rather my tax went on Education, Social Care, Well being and preventing people staving to death in Somalia than supporting bad employers :sadface:

I agree with you.

[ahinton]

QED. There are two points at issue:

1. Is the payment to retired citizens a pension?

2. Is it a benefit?

1. seems to be indisputable, being no more than a regular payment, and you appear to agree in the above quote. It therefore seems odd to 'correct' the usage as if it were wrong.

2. is it, on the other hand/also, a benefit: disputable but not the point at issue.

As I mentioned, though, it is not a payment to retired citizens; it is a payment made to citizens of what's still called state retirement age, irrespective of whether the recipients are actually retired. I expressed neither agreement nor disagreement with the above quote because, as I've stated previously, what anyone might call it doesn't necessarily of itself make it such (as the use of the terms "pension" and "benefit" for the same thing ought alone to illustrate).

It is a benefit to the extent that recipients benefit from it without having had to invest pension contributions into it and then vest it at a time of their choosing.

[ahinton]

I suppose I ought to post again that I voted with a very heavy heart for Remain in case anyone thinks the opposite. But - in my humble opinion - there is absolutely no going back!

But is there any going forward? There's scant evidence of it so far, almost 9 months after the referendum...

[greenilex]

Benefit is close to benefaction, so I suppose has an unfortunate charitable tinge...in fact many benefits are received as of right, as a result of a lifetime of contributions.

[Lat-Literal]

But is there any going forward? There's scant evidence of it so far, almost 9 months after the referendum...

Not sure how to reply to that point.

I would have had in all the newspapers before now a national plan for food, farming and fisheries.

That is, irrespective of future trading arrangements - at the very least. :smiley:

[Beef Oven!]

One could argue that far too much money is spend making sure that the money is spent where it is supposed to be going but still people believe that there is no accountability in the EU ?

You are mistaking bureaucracy with accountability. If the EU funding was meticulous in its accounts, the auditors would have been able to sign off the accounts completely - something that has not been achieved for over 20 years. For example in the 2013 outturn (the most up to date comprehensive figures) the EU's own auditors identified 109 billion euros of expenditure "affected by material error" - out of a total spend of 119 billion euros! Frightening!

And anyway, the criticism that we Eurosceptics make, is that there is insufficient accountability and excessive operating costs, not fraud (though there's bound to be some).

This might help you to get a grasp of it. http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/socsi/under...c/weber12.html

[ahinton]

Benefit is close to benefaction, so I suppose has an unfortunate charitable tinge

It could be read that way but could equally be regarded, I think, as simply an illustration of the fact that its recipients "benefit" from what they receive but haven't had to invest in it as they would in a pension.

...in fact many benefits are received as of right, as a result of a lifetime of contributions.

Which ones do you have in mind?

[ahinton]

You are mistaking bureaucracy with accountability. If the EU funding was meticulous in its accounts, the auditors would have been able to sign off the accounts completely - something that has not been achieved for over 20 years. For example in the 2013 outturn (the most up to date comprehensive figures) the EU's own auditors identified 109 billion euros of expenditure "affected by material error" - out of a total spend of 119 billion euros! Frightening!

And anyway, the criticism that we Eurosceptics make, is that there is insufficient accountability and excessive operating costs, not fraud (though there's bound to be some).

This might help you to get a grasp of it. http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/socsi/under...c/weber12.html

That there is as much truth in this as there is must be worrying for Eurosceptics and Europhiles alike, although I remain unconvinced that it's necessarily any worse than America's finances or China's, for example; that doesn't justify such wholesale financial mismanagement, be it wilful and corrupt or unacceptably careless or both but, at the same time, it doesn't indicate that the same or similar might not happen on a smaller scale within each ex-EU nation should EU collapse.

[Serial_Apologist]

Some of May's "ordinary working people" appear to have been embezzling election expenses, and the Tories fined £70k, a punishment puny in relation to the resulting in part small parliamentary majority, further undermining of our already undemocratic first-past-the-post system.

Imo there should be a charge of electoral embezzlement for exceeding pre-electoral spending limits, and punishment for anyone found guilty of these practices a spell in one of HM's underfunded and understaffed prisons. Election results disorted by such malpractices should be nulled and voided, and to obviate buck passing, candidates perhaps charged with full responsibility in overseeing of procedures.

[Beef Oven!]

That there is as much truth in this as there is must be worrying for Eurosceptics and Europhiles alike, although I remain unconvinced that it's necessarily any worse than America's finances or China's, for example; that doesn't justify such wholesale financial mismanagement, be it wilful and corrupt or unacceptably careless or both but, at the same time, it doesn't indicate that the same or similar might not happen on a smaller scale within each ex-EU nation should EU collapse.

Truth? It’s the EU's own auditors saying it.

Wave it away and say China's worse, if you must. It’s that sort of attitude that got us into the position we’re in in the first place - an inability to admit that there’s something wrong going on that needs to be put right. Well, all you pro-EU people certainly had it come back and bite you on your bums!!! :laugh: