May's "ordinary working people"?

[ardcarp]

May (ahem) we suppose that self-employed musicians are ordinary working people? If so why have we been hit by a NIC heist? We have no sick pay, no maternity benefit, no holiday pay and no employee pension. Although I personally am already past the NIC-paying stage and receiving my State Retirement Benefit...why a benefit????....I feel very sorry for those still paying it. May I suggest letters to MPs?

[ahinton]

May (ahem) we suppose that self-employed musicians are ordinary working people? If so why have we been hit by a NIC heist? We have no sick pay, no maternity benefit, no holiday pay and no employee pension. Although I personally am already past the NIC-paying stage and receiving my State Retirement Benefit...why a benefit????....I feel very sorry for those still paying it. May I suggest letters to MPs?

I could not agree more!

[teamsaint]

Class 4 is indeed a disgrace, and not just for hard working musicians.
( I did 20 years self employed, so know how it feels).

NIC and Income tax rates need harmonising, so that high earners pay appropriate marginal rates, and there are good incentives in the system to earn more.
As it stands, modest earners with student loans face marginal deduction rates of around 40%, and the highest paid in the country face top rates of 45%.
Scandalous. And it was more or less as bad under Labour as the Lib dems/tories.

[MrGongGong]

May I suggest letters to MPs?

I was going to try shouting at the sea
it will have the same effect on what will happen with NIC
BUT make me feel a whole lot better for the exercise

[french frank]

If so why have we been hit by a NIC heist?

Because there was a preelection pledge NOT to raise Class 1 NI. But Class 4 is not the same as Class 1, so that's all right.

[MrGongGong]

Because there was a preelection pledge NOT to raise Class 1 NI. But Class 4 is not the same as Class 1, so that's all right.

I think it was another one of this type?

http://safetysurplus.co.uk/image/cac...01-500x500.jpg

[MrGongGong]

Because there was a preelection pledge NOT to raise Class 1 NI. But Class 4 is not the same as Class 1, so that's all right.

I think it was another one of this type?

http://safetysurplus.co.uk/image/cac...01-500x500.jpg

[P. G. Tipps]

To be fair the most disastrous PM in modern times slunk quietly away last year, thank goodness. Any pre-election pledge inevitably died as a result. Of course, it is perfectly valid to say that Ms May should have put her policies before the electorate to give the new Government legitimate authority.

On the other hand, though I have little time for the current people in charge of the Government, they have to pick up the pieces from the disastrous mess they have inherited.

As widely predicted by some before the EU Referendum, no one now seems to know where to go or what to do. This could easily turn out to be an even bigger national humiliation for the UK than Suez and I had a lot more sympathy for Sir Anthony Eden, who at least didn't cause his own disaster. Hammond may only have just started increasing taxes and, as always, it'll be the relatively poor who will suffer the most.

However, it has to be said, the 52% who voted Leave cannot escape their share of responsibility.

'Trust the People'? You have to be joking! :smiley:

[ardcarp]

NIC is just another form of taxation. By pretending it isn't, the government can put up NIC (to people who can least afford it) and still claim to be a party of low taxation.

[ahinton]

NIC is just another form of taxation. By pretending it isn't, the government can put up NIC (to people who can least afford it) and still claim to be a party of low taxation.

Of course it is and always has been; it "insures" no one against any risk, it "contributes" to nothing as, for example, pension contributions at least purport to do and all that can be said of it is that it is "national".

[gurnemanz]

To be fair the most disastrous PM in modern times slunk quietly away last year, thank goodness. Any pre-election pledge inevitably died as a result. Of course, it is perfectly valid to say that Ms May should have put her policies before the electorate to give the new Government legitimate authority.

On the other hand, though I have little time for the current people in charge of the Government, they have to pick up the pieces from the disastrous mess they have inherited.

As widely predicted by some before the EU Referendum, no one now seems to know where to go or what to do. This could easily turn out to be an even bigger national humiliation for the UK than Suez and I had a lot more sympathy for Sir Anthony Eden, who at least didn't cause his own disaster. Hammond may only have just started increasing taxes and, as always, it'll be the relatively poor who will suffer the most.

However, it has to be said, the 52% who voted Leave cannot escape their share of responsibility.

'Trust the People'? You have to be joking! :smiley:

Alas for our country, all your points are valid. The Brexit farce which has led to our elected representatives wasting their time for the foreseeable future, amid chaotic uncertainty, implementing a policy which the majority of them believe is not in the best interests of the country. Cameron should have known you can't trust the people. The Brexit vote has proved it.

[Lat-Literal]

Most self-employed people are not musicians.

I have become increasingly aware of how plumbers, electricians and the like - some are relatives - have overtaken ordinary workers in the public sector to the extent of having mansions here and holiday homes abroad. The 4 x 4 and the second and third vehicle etc etc. That is essentially the difference between decades of public sector workers having tax deducted at source and every day being cash in hand. I have no problems at all with the new small partial redistribution via National Insurance. It is a step in the right direction. The most disastrous PM in modern times slunk quietly away last year, thank goodness. Yes but I would vote Tory for the first time in a national election if they abandoned fracking.

As for Brexit, we are we are. I have completely written off the Lib Dems now given their cosy relationship with Blair and the Labour Party could turn Blairite again at any moment.

(NI is an insurance. So is most taxation. All tax should be renamed insurance. But the OP's irritation at pensions being described as benefits is spot on. The word benefits should be reserved for payments that are non-contributory. That would include income from what is currently known as lawful tax avoidance. That should be renamed a welfare benefit. Then it could be assessed by voters as other benefits are assessed, ie is that benefit going to the most needy? A lot of good can result from a changing of terms to something accurate.)

[ahinton]

Most self-employed people are not musicians.

True, of course, but that doesn't make this latest gaffe any better of more justifiable.

(NI is an insurance. So is most taxation. All tax should be renamed insurance.

Why? Against what risks does it "insure" whom? How do people claim on it as they do when necessary on their car insurance, private health insurance, home insurance &c.? NIC4 doesn't even come with any state benefit entitlement attached!

But the OP's irritation at pensions being described as benefits is spot on. The word benefits should be reserved for payments that are non-contributory.

I can't see the logic in that. State retirement benefit is no different to any other state benefit in terms of how it is funded, namely from the taxes of one kind and another that the state receives during the couple of weeks or so prior to paying them out. State retirement benefit involves no pension fund into which taxpayers can invest their "pension contributions" and then vest it at retirement or whenever they might choose at a certain age, so to call it a "pension" is thus a misnomer, as it is quite unlike actual pensions, be they employer based or personal; it is a benefit like all other state benefits funded out of the taxes that other people pay.

That would include income from what is currently known as lawful tax avoidance.

...which is by no means confined to the self-employed! Anyway, what would?

That should be renamed a welfare benefit. Then it could be assessed by voters as other benefits are assessed, ie is that benefit going to the most needy? A lot of good can result from a changing of terms to something accurate.)

What state retirement benefits and actual pensions do have in common is that they are liable to tax, so to that extent "the most needy" will be paying the least tax (or none at all) on their state retirement benefit whereas those with six-figure incomes from pensions, earnings/profits, investments et al will be paying the most tax back to the state on theirs; the latter for the most part hardly even notice the state retirement benefit that they receive upon reaching what I imagine will have to be the ever increasing qualifying age.

Yes, the terms do need changing. Get rid of "National Insurance Contributions" for starters and be honest and call them "tax"; indeed, merging the two (which has been considered in the past but never actually done) would itself save the state - i.e. all of us - a fortune in itself.

[MrGongGong]

Most self-employed people are not musicians.

And ?

Grouping all "self-employed" people together is daft
Many of the richest people are also "self-employed" for tax purposes
but for many of us who are self-employed musicians (which is the vast majority) this is terrible

[Dave2002]

Yes but I would vote Tory for the first time in a national election if they abandoned fracking.

I don't think I could bring myself to do that. It has been suggested that I join the "Cons", with some notion that I could "change it from within". That approach has not been perceived as a successful way for the UK to deal with the EU, and it could be argued that both the EU and the UK were just not willing to change sufficiently for an outcome acceptable to the UK electorate, which has turned out to be the case. I would probably rather not vote (and I would be disgusted with myself for not doing ....) or vote for any of the other minority parties, though it would not have a significant effect as the area where I live now would vote for the Tories even if the candidate was just a labelled pot of lard.

I've not realy digested the content of the budget yet - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39193938

One thing I noted in the article from the previous sentence is that tax is paid on "profit" for self employed persons. Perhaps such people should make sure that they don't actually make any "profit". I don't really understand this, but the wording strikes me as a bit odd. Of course people who are poorly paid may have to be quite ingenious to offset their "profits" and it would be both time consuming, and also perhaps difficult to claim allowed expenses, whereas some of the very rich in our societies seem to find that kind of behaviour quite easy to do.