May's "ordinary working people"?

[Beef Oven!]

You're as unlikely to persuade me as I am to persuade you. Trying to introduce new ideas might get different responses.

I see it this way: that the EU has its advantages and its flaws. On the whole, we make up our minds about it on the basis of the importance we give to the various aspects. I am overwhelmingly more in favour of all the good points; the flaws are recognised, they may be intractable but I would sooner put up with them than lose what I value. I am not a nationalist and never will be.

Reasoned argument will not make me downgrade those points that I care about and value what I care less about.

Why do you see it as a binary option? Is there not a third way that seeks the valuable benefits of the things that you care about while eradicating the flaws? The flaws aren’t given.

[french frank]

Why do you see it as a binary option? Is there not a third way that seeks the valuable benefits of the things that you care about while eradicating the flaws? The flaws aren’t given.

I don't see it as a binary option. I'm saying that that's how people make up their minds whether they want to Remain or Leave (a binary option): they weigh up the pros and the cons but it depends which aspects carry most weight with them. The cons carry little weight with me: that doesn't mean they shouldn't be acknowledged and efforts made to eradicate them.

[aeolium]

This is a fine, practical, political sentiment. But for people such as me (if there are any others) the ideals of the EU are a great civilising factor. A Europe where national borders are recognised as having less and less importance, an ethic of 'one for all' in matters such as the environment, the enshrining of individual rights in law, a supranational tier that citizens can appeal to, this seems the right way to go.

On the other hand, the invocation of 'democracy', of Britain First, of wanting the ultimate power to choose how we make decisions for ourselves (and a 'bring back hanging referendum') seems to be the rallying cry of populists. In a mature democracy we should be able to elect representatives who take a wider view, and allow them to decide matters which individuals can only judge as far as they affect them as individuals.

I am also sympathetic to the ideals of common co-operative action between nations and common standards of human rights but I think in the last two decades there has been a distinct mismatch between the ideals of the EU and the effects of its policies, and this is having the opposite of a civilising effect. The rise of populism has everything to do with failed economic policies, both at national and European level, and a widespread sense of powerlessness on the part of individuals and communities to have any influence on their lives. I don't think the answer to that is increased supranational power particularly when it is combined with such a low level of democratic accountability (unavoidable in such a large community of nations). I think it just results in increased nationalism, and often in extreme forms. People will always want at least the illusion of national control over matters such as economic policy, migration, security, particularly when disasters occur like the crash of 2008 or terrorist attacks. To me, Greece is a salutary corrective to the idea that we should be happy to hand over critical decision-making power to unelected bodies who are not accountable in any way to the citizens for their decisions. And environmental policy has to be implemented at a national level, and is agreed at an international level between nations (Paris Climate Change treaty, e.g.) - the climate neither stops at national nor at European borders.

I think the invocation of 'bring back hanging' referendums is a red herring designed in some way to invalidate referendums, and perhaps more generally the idea of democracy itself - if people are so brutish as to call for hanging to be brought back then surely they are not fit to vote for anything. In fact support for the return of capital punishment has been steadily falling; only extreme right-wing parties like the BNP in the UK advocate it; and the last e-petition calling for its return only garnered c 26000 names. It's worth remembering also that there were several bills aimed at restoring the death penalty introduced in the decades before the UK incorporated the European Convention of Human Rights into UK law in 1998, and the late M Thatcher was a keen supporter. No referendum prompted these bills. The idea that MPs are necessary to curb the barbarism of the people is a complete myth, I fear.

[Beef Oven!]

I don't see it as a binary option. I'm saying that that's how people make up their minds whether they want to Remain or Leave (a binary option): they weigh up the pros and the cons but it depends which aspects carry most weight with them. The cons carry little weight with me: that doesn't mean they shouldn't be acknowledged and efforts made to eradicate them.

Why do you limit it to what carries weight or otherwise with you? Earlier you argued that a mature approach to democracy is limited because people can only judge things as far as they affect them as individuals and a broader perspective is required.

[french frank]

I am also sympathetic to the ideals of common co-operative action between nations and common standards of human rights but …

I'll come back on some of these points later (I've had enough for this evening!).

But one point: it was you who suggested that the referendum had to take place because the signs were that the people wanted it and that the rise of UKIP and their success in the EU elections supported that view. The corollary would be that a referendum should be called on any issue because people wanted it (whether capital punishment or anything else), and that the result of the referendum was binding on the politicians. I disagree. It should be for Parliament to decide when there is a referendum (preferably never in my book) and for Parliament to decide whether it should be binding or not. In this case, David Cameron decided it should be binding: that was not in the referendum Bill, as it was for the Scottish referendum and duly voted on.

[french frank]

Why do you limit it to what carries weight or otherwise with you?

I'm not. I'm suggesting that, in practice, that's how people have decided their view on the EU. You may have decided on quite different grounds, I grant you.

[Beef Oven!]

I'm not. I'm suggesting that, in practice, that's how people have decided their view on the EU. You may have decided on quite different grounds, I grant you.

In that case, I decided not on different grounds, but on a much wider, considered perspective than you did.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Can we go home now?


But before we do. . .


http://i.imgur.com/p8jJIYu.jpg

[Beef Oven!]

Crikey!

Can we leave now? Hurry up Theresa, look how much it’s costing!

The EU amounts to a net cost of over £1 million pounds per hour to the EU, - net after all benefits, rebates, funding comes back to us!!

We have to borrow, sell bonds and tax the hard-working up to the yin-yangs to raise that kinda money!

And EA, any tips on how to get yer tax & NI bill down to £6781, as in your pie chart?

Can we go home now?


But before we do. . .


http://i.imgur.com/p8jJIYu.jpg

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Theresa (aka Dolores Umbridge) would like us to remain.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+theresa+may+remain+speech&view=detail&mid=A2F2783EC97761F08270A2F2783EC97761F08270&FORM=VIRE

[Beef Oven!]

Theresa (aka Dolores Umbridge) would like us to remain.


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...8270&FORM=VIRE

Of course she does, but as Prime Minister and head of the Queen’s Government, she must do the will of the people and get us out - à toute vitesse! The people have spoken!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

:yawn:

[Beef Oven!]

:yawn:

Then, have your hot milk and go to bed.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Then, have your hot milk and go to bed.

I prefer Volvic. (It's French.)

[Beef Oven!]

I prefer Volvic. (It's French.)

I prefer Minerva - it’s Italian, as is my motherland. I’m an incurable Europhile.