General election results 2015

[ahinton]

So what actually is your definition of fascism? Robert Paxton ought to know, he's dedicated his life to studying it. His Anatomy of Fascism has this as a definition: A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. Is that how you'd describe the EU?

It's not how I'd immediately think to describe EU itself but, as a descripton of fascism per se, it fits the bill pretty well, I'd say - and I don't perceive it as particularly at odds with Sorabji's far more simplistically expressed one, FWIW...

[Beef Oven!]

If you'd been paying attention to my oft-stated political position since I joined this forum you would have assumed that I would not think the EU could be "reformed from within". I think my position on such questions has been quite consistent.



No s**t, Sherlock. So what actually is your definition of fascism? Robert Paxton ought to know, he's dedicated his life to studying it. His Anatomy of Fascism has this as a definition: A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. Is that how you'd describe the EU?

Never mind no shit Sherlock - if you can't recognise quasi-fascist characteristics in the EU, then you might benefit from some elementary thinking.

And what's this muddled thinking where you give us Paxton's ghastly overwrought, impossibly academic definition of fascism and then ask me if that's how I would describe the EU?

When I described the EU as quasi-fascist, I was thinking of its extreme and intolerant form of authoritarianism. Where democracy is cynically mocked and all economic and social relationships are corralled and dictated by the money worshiping central elite. And is the national and economic destruction of Greece any different to the miseries encountered by other European states during the Hitler years?

As I said, fascists aren't always well-dressed and don't always have great music.

[Richard Barrett]

then you might benefit from some elementary thinking

End of conversation I think.

[Bryn]

You think we were having a conversation? [from a message since deleted by its author]

Well you each appear to put forward the converse of the the other's arguments.

[Beef Oven!]

Well you each appear to put forward the converse of the the other's arguments.

I deleted that because I couldn't be arsed, but I should've known someone would be lurking.

[Richard Barrett]

What I mean is that there are numerous people on this forum with whom I find it stimulating and enlightening to discuss various subjects even when there might be some basic disagreements. Those I don't I disregard. That will include Beef Oven from now.

[Beef Oven!]

What I mean is that there are numerous people on this forum with whom I find it stimulating and enlightening to discuss various subjects even when there might be some basic disagreements. Those I don't I disregard. That will include Beef Oven from now.

Get off your high horse you arrogant so and so.

[Bryn]

Well, since pseudo-DvV has brought Godwin along to the discussion, that about wraps it up, I guess.

[Beef Oven!]

Well, since pseudo-DvV has brought Godwin along to the discussion, that about wraps it up, I guess.

What is pseudo DvV?

[Bryn]

What is pseudo DvV?

"O Captain! My Captain!"

[Anastasius]

But the referendum won't be about how the EU is run... if there were more participation in Euroelections the system could become more representative; if the UK leaves there'd be no chance any more of voting for or against policies which will end up affecting the UK anyway. It's a bit weird that people who say the EU is not sufficiently democratic (as I do) often think it should be made less democratic by removing UK voters' voices from it. Wouldn't it be better to take Euroelections more seriously and hold MEPs more accountable for what they do once they're elected, just as (theoretically) is the case in general elections?

That is simply not true. Where on earth do you get that idea from? The EPC (energy performance certificate directive) ..a pointless directive when one looks into the nitty-gritty but we still slavishly followed it when we didn't need to but we did.

And some we don't. The EU Regulation 1099/2009 on the slaughter of livestock (for once, a sensible directive from the EU that prevents animals regaining consciousness, and hence suffering, until dead) was intended to be implemented in the UK as the WATOK (Welfare of Animals at Time of Killing) Regulation but was revoked by the lick-spittle pandering Government (DEFRA) before it even came into law. That was one EU Directive not followed (to the Govt's eternal shame).

[Anastasius]

......
ECHR's terms and provisions are broadly similar to those of UK's Human Rights Act 1998 as well as to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) and the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), each of which is a United Nations (UN) document to which, again, UK government is a signatory. For UK to exonerate itself from any and all such Human Rights legislative responsibilties altogether, it would have not only to quit EU and CoE but also UN, which is hardly likely, although the prospect of a CoE and UN member state no longer having its own national Human Rights legislation would look to be a most peculiar one to say the least.

Unless you are an expert on International Law then your statement is based on wishful thinking.

[Anastasius]

.... Robert Paxton ought to know, he's dedicated his life to studying it. His Anatomy of Fascism has this as a definition: A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. Is that how you'd describe the EU?

No, but it does sound like a very accurate description of Islam !!

[Ed. I think one ought to be careful about how one expresses one's opinions: there is nothing whatever that could equate Islam, the religion, with fascism. The vicious, murderous group that acts in the name of Islam is distinct from the religion and its millions of ordinary practitioners. Careless talk can be mistaken for extremism - ff]

[MrGongGong]

Here are some "hare brained" schemes that shouldn't have happened

https://www.gov.uk/erdf-programmes-progress-and-achievements#projects-funded-by-erdf

[Bryn]

No, but it does sound like a very accurate description of Islam !!

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law