General election results 2015

[MrGongGong]

Why do you think that having a non racist immigration policy is a fantasy? Why discriminate against African, Indian and Arab musicians in favour of white Europeans?

What have you against having direct trade relationships with countries like Jamaica and Pakistan? Why do you want it at arms length, through our European cousins?

It's said that so much racism and xenophobia lurks behind policies and laws that we tout as progressive.

Why do you assume that opposing your fantasy politicians means that someone is in favour of another bunch of shysters?

(Is the UKIP foreign policy derived from too many hours playing Risk?)

BUT back to the election or the basement will be boarded up again ;-)

[Beef Oven!]

BUT back to the election or the basement will be boarded up again ;-)

Go on, run away.

[Richard Barrett]

Why do you assume that opposing your fantasy politicians means that someone is in favour of another bunch of shysters?

Quite. This discussion seems to be heading down well-worn pathways... I don't think anyone here has claimed that the EU is any kind of earthly paradise - it does seem pretty obvious though that whatever the answer to the EU's systemic problems might be, reducing the UK's leverage by leaving is not it. End of story surely. (End of mine anyway.)

[ahinton]

Due to the ridiculously little-Englander election first past the post system that the establishment keeps itself in power with, Carswell is the only MP representing the 4 million UKIP voters (we need a continental system). So the money would go to a good cause.

But under a system such as you advocate, UKIP, though it would be the third party that it already is in terms of votes, would still hold little more than 10% of the total cast for all parties, so what makes you think that it would be a much more effective force in Parliament than it is now?

Nice to note your use of the expression "little-Englander", though!...

[Beef Oven!]

Quite.

Quite what?

I don't think anyone here has claimed that the EU is any kind of earthly paradise

Straw man argument.

it does seem pretty obvious though that whatever the answer to the EU's systemic problems might be, reducing the UK's leverage by leaving is not it.

Are you quoting Kenneth Clarke or Tony Blair, here?

[Beef Oven!]

But under a system such as you advocate, UKIP, though it would be the third party that it already is in terms of votes, would still nold little more than 10% of those cast for all parties, so what makes you think that it would be a much more effective force in Parliament than it is now?

The clue is in the potential 83 MPs the UKIP would have in the House of Commons.

[Bryn]

Quite what?

Right.

Straw man argument.

Is that a copyright claim?

Are you quoting Kenneth Clarke or Tony Blair, here?

Some are capable of independent thought and have no need to fall back on regurgitating 'arguments' put forward by blustering Little Blighty on the Down party luminaries.

[Beef Oven!]

Right.

Wrong

Is that a copyright claim?

Go on?

Some are capable of independent thought and have no need to fall back on regurgitating 'arguments' put forward by blustering Little Blighty on the Down party luminaries.

The point was that it is hardly independent thought.


Get out of bed the wrong side this morning?

[Bryn]

Wrong

...

Go on?

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?13010-If-only-the-debate-were-really-over

The point was that it is hardly independent thought.

Coming to a similar conclusion to others is not an indication of a lack of independent thought.

Get out of bed the wrong side this morning?

Another straw man from the principal deployer here.

[Beef Oven!]

Another straw man from the principal deployer here.

Back up what you are saying, or shut up.

[Bryn]

Back up what you are saying, or shut up.

Sufficient examples already given.

[french frank]

The clue is in the potential 83 MPs the UKIP would have in the House of Commons.

'Potential' is a key word here. There is no guarantee, when other preferences are taken into consideration, that UKIP would get 13% of the MPs. Would the preferences move towards the Greens and LibDems, for example? Or split between Labour and Tories? PR might squeeze parties, rather than reward them in proportion with their FPTP votes.

[Richard Barrett]

PR might squeeze parties, rather than reward them in proportion with their FPTP votes.

Indeed. The supposition is often that everyone will vote exactly the same way under any given PR system as under FPTP, but there's no reason to suppose this; some would, but others surely wouldn't. Including me actually.

[Beef Oven!]

'Potential' is a key word here. There is no guarantee, when other preferences are taken into consideration, that UKIP would get 13% of the MPs. Would the preferences move towards the Greens and LibDems, for example? Or split between Labour and Tories? PR might squeeze parties, rather than reward them in proportion with their FPTP votes.

That's why I used, for the first time, potential MPs.

It's hard to predict what would happen to the UKIP's vote under the various forms of PR.

[MrGongGong]

Indeed. The supposition is often that everyone will vote exactly the same way under any given PR system as under FPTP, but there's no reason to suppose this; some would, but others surely wouldn't. Including me actually.

And how many people would vote for a politics that offered something really different?
How many would vote for a politics that suggested that we should behave ethically?