General election results 2015

[ahinton]

I read the original post by RB to be all-inclusive. That was my valid interpretation as to what he wrote and meant. That being so, and as I pointed out, we would not be affected by all such EU policies and directives.

My English may not be up to much (I am a mere Scot, after all), but there seems to me to be a material difference between "we will still be affected by EU laws" as RB wrote and "every UK resident, citizens and non-citizens thereof alike, will all be affected at all times by all EU policies, laws and directives"; with respect, your inerpretation is therefore just that - your interpretation of something all-inclusive - which is not what RB actually wrote or meant. So you not agree that, for at least those three reasons that I gave (and doubtless also numerous others), UK citizens will continue to be affected by EU laws, policies and directives whether or not it remins an EU member state, especially as either way it will remain a Council of Europe member along with all the other EU member states?

[Richard Barrett]

I note that you've not responded to my points explaining why your statement 'we will still be affected by EU laws' is wrong.

No, because I hadn't seen them, but this ground has been gone over so many times here it makes me start losing the will to live, so if you'd like to assume that I'm ignoring your points, whatever they are, because I don't have the answers, then be my guest.

As with the Bible, the Quran can be used as a source from which to extract apophthegms to support virtually any point of view. That does not make Islam fascist any more than it makes any other religion fascist.

[MrGongGong]

Many of those schemes are the things that governments should be doing. The problem is that the quasi-fascist EU costs Britain £55 million per day, or £33 million as these people think https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu...ribution-30887

All these schemes can be delivered more efficiently by any government, without the need of an anti-democratic, unelected institution of fat-salaried bureaucrats.

zzzzzzzzzzz

Of course they should
BUT they won't
BUT spare us the 'anti-democratic' nonsense

Do you really think that

1: The UK Government is 'democratic'
and
2: 'democracy' is the best way of deciding everything?

You place ALL your trust in voting .... why?

[David-G]

Do you really think that
1: The UK Government is 'democratic'
and
2: 'democracy' is the best way of deciding everything?

1. Yes, 2. democracy is a method of government, not a way of deciding.

[MrGongGong]

1. Yes, 2. democracy is a method of government, not a way of deciding.

So I guess it equally applies to the EU then.
There are sound reasons to be opposed to it but the idea that it's somehow 'undemocratic' (which is usually coupled to slavish devotion to the 'Windsors') doesn't really wash IMV

[ahinton]

As was pointed out on this morning's R4 Today, should UK leave EU and seek a relationship with it that's akin to that of, say, Norway or Switzerland, it will still be subject to a number of EU regulations and obligations are those countries are; why it is that a handful of people seem unable to accept this, I simply do not know. I'm sure that Mr Farage (also interviewed on this morning's Today), who makes a big thing of wanting UK to continue trading relationships with EU once it ceases its membership thereof (as he obviously hopes it will), is well aware of this, even though he doubtless finds it convenent not to mention it.

[Beef Oven!]

As was pointed out on this morning's R4 Today, should UK leave EU and seek a relatiship with it that's akin to that of, say, Norway or Switzerland, it will still be subject to a number of EU regulations and obligations are those countries are; why it is that a handful of people seem unable to accept this, I simply do not know. I'm sure that Mr Farage (also interviewed on this morning's Today), who makes a big thing of wanting UK to continue trading relationships with EU once it ceases its membership thereof (as he obviously hopes it will), is well aware of this, even though he doubtless finds it convenent not to mention it.

Another straw man argument. Why on Earth would the UK want a relationship like Norway or Switzerland?

The UK is the EU's biggest customer, the fifth largest economy on the planet, GDP six times that of Norway and Switzerland.

There is absolutely no reason why the UK need have anything other than the type of relationship with the EU that works BOTH ways.

[jean]

As was pointed out on this morning's R4 Today...

Didn't some business leader say that business needed more 'flexibility?'

And when pressed, didn't he have to agree that what that really meant was greater ease in firing people?

[Beef Oven!]

Didn't some business leader say that business needed more 'flexibility?'

And when pressed, didn't he have to agree that what that really meant was greater ease in firing people?

Great questions, but I can't help you with the answers because I didn't tune in this morning.

Happily, it's got nothing to do with the reasons why the UK needs to leave the EU.

[Richard Barrett]

Didn't some business leader say that business needed more 'flexibility?'

And when pressed, didn't he have to agree that what that really meant was greater ease in firing people?

That is what "flexibility" generally means to the business community, when it doesn't mean holding working conditions or wages down.

[jean]

Great questions, but I can't help you with the answers because I didn't tune in this morning.

I don't need your help, beefy - those were rhetorical questions.

Happily, it's got nothing to do with the reasons why the UK needs to leave the EU.

But if you had been listening, you'd know it's got everything to do with those reasons.

I'm not in the least surprised - I just like to hear them admitting it.

[ahinton]

Another straw man argument.

No - unless UK might expect to export its straw to EU.

Why on Earth would the UK want a relationship like Norway or Switzerland?

I didn't say that it necessarily would; I merely used those two as illustrations of Western European nations who have dealings with EU but are not EU member states. Which others could I have cited instead?

The UK is the EU's biggest customer, the fifth largest economy on the planet, GDP six times that of Norway and Switzerland.

There is absolutely no reason why the UK need have anything other than the type of relationship with the EU that works BOTH ways.

But would it have it, though? Yes, UK is a major economic nation in Europe, of course, but has it not occurred to you that UK leaving EU will likely bring about increasing animosity and divisiveness? You seem to be advocating - or expecting - that, were UK to leave EU, UK would continue to dictate terms to EU on a "business as usual" basis as though it hadn't left; to the extent (if any) that this might be true, what would have been the point of UK quitting EU in the first place?!

Nicola Sturgeon has assured anyone who believes her that SNP's election landslide will not act as the signal for a second Scottish "independence" referendum and one may accept her word on that if one wishes but, if the UK/EU in/out referendum goes against UK remaining an EU member state (which I happen to believe is unlikely), I would be not at all surprised if a second Scottish "independence" referendum would then proceed, because there seems to be far less impetus in Scotland than anywhere else in UK for quitting EU and I imagine that an "independent" Scotland will wish to regain its EU membership (although I don't know what impact if any this might have upon Wales, whose success in the recent election was hardly any greater than last time around).

[ahinton]

That is what "flexibility" generally means to the business community, when it doesn't mean holding working conditions or wages down.

Of course it does - and that applies in EU member states and would continue to apply in UK whether or not it left EU; indeed, it applies pretty much everywhere these days, doesn't it? - and as much within the public setor as within "the business community". Why else would so many working people in both private and public sectors also be on state benefits? (and likely to stay on them until the next Budget generously takes them off some of these).

[Beef Oven!]

I'm not in the least surprised - I just like to hear them admitting it.

People are never surprised when they hear something that they think supports their prejudices.

[Beef Oven!]

Of course it does - and that applies in EU member states and would continue to apply in UK whether or not it left EU; indeed, it applies pretty much everywhere these days, doesn't it? - and as much within the public setor as within "the business community". Why else would so many working people in both private and public sectors also be on state benefits? (and likely to stay on them until the next Budget generously takes them off some of these).

I almost posted something in contradiction to your point, but is it not better to just let you boys and girls reinforce one another's world view?

(and I'm trying out one of them there rhetorical questions that we go in for in here, so don't worry about answering).