General election results 2015

[ahinton]

Unless you are an expert on International Law then your statement is based on wishful thinking.

I am not such (as you probably guessed, but what I wrote is based upon facts on which I happen to have had personal reasons to need to bone up and to discuss with some of those involved.

Where in any case is the "wishful thinking" in what I wrote? I wsn't actually "wishing" for anything, as far as I was aware - merely pointing out a few facts!

EU currently has 28 member states; fact.
UK is one of those; fact.
Council of Europe has 47 member states including those 28 EU member states; fact.
UK is therefore a member of Council of Europe; fact.
The European Convention on Human Rights is not an EU law applicable only to and within EU member states but a convention that falls within the area of responsibility of Council of Europe; fact.
UK leaving EU would not mean UK leaving Council of Europe; fact.
UK is, like most states, a member of UN; fact.
UDHR and ICCPR are UN documents; fact.
UK is therefore a signatory of ECHR, UDHR and ICCPR; fact.
UK abolishing its own Human Rights Act 1998 would accordingly make no difference to its signatory status of or responsibilities under ECHR, UDHR or ICCPR; fact.

If I've made any erroneous assumptions here, please let me know what you think they are.

[Richard Barrett]

No, but it does sound like a very accurate description of Islam !!

I have looked through this paragraph again point by point and come to the conclusion that you must not have done.

[Beef Oven!]

"O Captain! My Captain!"

How funny. If you'd used your wit differently, you might've made something of yourself.

[Beef Oven!]

Here are some "hare brained" schemes that shouldn't have happened

https://www.gov.uk/erdf-programmes-p...funded-by-erdf

Many of those schemes are the things that governments should be doing. The problem is that the quasi-fascist EU costs Britain £55 million per day, or £33 million as these people think https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu...ribution-30887

All these schemes can be delivered more efficiently by any government, without the need of an anti-democratic, unelected institution of fat-salaried bureaucrats.

[ahinton]

Many of those schemes are the things that governments should be doing. The problem is that the quasi-fascist EU costs Britain £55 million per day, or £33 million as these people think https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu...ribution-30887

All these schemes can be delivered more efficiently by any government, without the need of an anti-democratic, unelected institution of fat-salaried bureaucrats.

Whether or not they could (which is debatable), the question is would they?

Some of those who, like you, advocate UK leaving EU without bothering with a referendum first (if I understand you correctly - and please put me right if I have any part of that wrong), would be content with that whereas others of like mind about this also want to see, or help to bring about, the demise of EU altogether; as a matter of interest, into which of these categories might you place yourself?

You describe EU as "quasi-fascist"; within in or outside the context of Sorabji's observation that I've quoted before - namely that fascism is everyone else's fascism but one's own - what is your reason for tempering your description of EU with the word "quasi-" and how would you interpret the differences between, on the one hand, EU as an allegedly "quasi-fascist" organisation to which its 28 members have voluntarily joined and been accepted as such and, on the other, as the plain and simple "fascist" organisation from which you perhaps wisely shrink from describing it?

[ahinton]

How funny. If you'd used your wit differently, you might've made something of yourself.

Making something of oneself is not always a great idea...

[Beef Oven!]

Whether or not they could (which is debatable), the question is would they?

I don't think there is any question about whether they could, and if they wouldn't, they should be voted out.

Suggesting that there is a straight choice between national governments that can't, or won't pursue these sorts of economic and social policies is a false dichotomy of the highest order.

Some of those who, like you, advocate UK leaving EU without bothering with a referendum first (if I understand you correctly - and please put me right if I have any part of that wrong), would be content with that whereas others of like mind about this also want to see, or help to bring about, the demise of EU altogether; as a matter of interest, into which of these categories might you place yourself?

Britain coming out of the EU is a referendum issue IMV. I favour the dissolution of the EU and it's replacement with a representative world body that works globally on economic and social issues like environment, sustainable economic development, elimination of poverty, human rights etc.

As a European, I love Europe and I'm proud of our achievements. But I think that a global approach is required. We need to look beyond our parochial European environment.

[ahinton]

I don't think there is any question about whether they could, and if they wouldn't, they should be voted out.

...and replaced by another party or coalition of parties that also wouldn't?...

Suggesting that there is a straight choice between national governments that can't, or won't pursue these sorts of economic and social policies is a false dichotomy of the highest order.

I didn't say that there is one - or indeed even that EU can or will do what its member states' national govenrments can't or won't, actually!

Britain coming out of the EU is a referendum issue IMV.

Do you believe in the UK government holding a referendum on this issue rather than the policy or a certain party that's not in government taking it out of EU without first holding a referendum, then? OK, fine - but what would you feel if this referendum that currently looks set to be held by the end of 2017 goes against UK leaving EU?

I favour the dissolution of the EU

But if it were indeed to be dissolved (which would require the agreement of its 28 member states), there'd surely then be no such "referendum issue" to be had, would there?!

and it's replacement with a representative world body that works globally on economic and social issues like environment, sustainable economic development, elimination of poverty, human rights etc.

So do you believe that the UN, which we've had for a good many years, is not such an international organisation as you here advocate or do you believe that it, too, either can't or won't do what you believe it should?

As a European, I love Europe and I'm proud of our achievements. But I think that a global approach is required. We need to look beyond our parochial European environment.

See above re UN; what additional responsibilities would you like to see UN assume in the highly unlikely event that 28 countries that would still be CoE members agree to EU's dissolution?

[Beef Oven!]

Well, we never thought the wall would come down, did we?

[ahinton]

Well, we never thought the wall would come down, did we?

Many in Germany didn't for many years, that's true, but some in Germany on both sides thought that, like everything else, nothing lasts forever; likewise, many Russians couldn't ever see an end to the post-1917 régime in one form or another, but bite the dust it eventually did (and I suppose that one could also say, albeit on a much smaller scale, that not many traditional Labour supporters would have expected to witness one of the remaining current contenders for its leadership publicly declaring that it needs to turn into something not especially dissimilar to the Conservative Party Mk. II).

That said, your post neither answers any of the questions that I put to you above (and there are at least five of them!) nor gives any clue as to the reasons for such omission...

[Anastasius]

No, but it does sound like a very accurate description of Islam !!

[Ed. I think one ought to be careful about how one expresses one's opinions: there is nothing whatever that could equate Islam, the religion, with fascism. The vicious, murderous group that acts in the name of Islam is distinct from the religion and its millions of ordinary practitioners. Careless talk can be mistaken for extremism - ff]

ff.. I think you need to bone up a bit on the Quran. Here are just a couple of extracts...

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

[Anastasius]

I have looked through this paragraph again point by point and come to the conclusion that you must not have done.

A patronising but predictable response. <sigh>

I note that you've not responded to my points explaining why your statement 'we will still be affected by EU laws' is wrong.

[jean]

'...drive them out of the places whence they drove you out...'

Seems fair enough to me!

[ahinton]

I note that you've not responded to my points explaining why your statement 'we will still be affected by EU laws' is wrong.

Why does he need to? Isn't it perfectly obvious? Unless, for example, among other things, UK
(a) severs all of its trading, cultural and many so many other connetions with EU in the unlikely event that it leaves EU,
(b) declines to any longer fully to serve those citizens of all the other EU nations who continue to live and work in UK following such secession and
(c) abandons its membership of Council of Europe,
how could it be otherwise than affected by EU laws?

[Anastasius]

Why does he need to? Isn't it perfectly obvious? Unless, for example, among other things, UK
(a) severs all of its trading, cultural and many so many other connetions with EU in the unlikely event that it leaves EU,
(b) declines to any longer fully to serve those citizens of all the other EU nations who continue to live and work in UK following such secession and
(c) abandons its membership of Council of Europe,
how could it be otherwise than affected by EU laws?

I read the original post by RB to be all-inclusive. That was my valid interpretation as to what he wrote and meant. That being so, and as I pointed out, we would not be affected by all such EU policies and directives.