General election results 2015

[aeolium]

Thinking about it again, if there were a referendum on whether there should be a referendum on voting reform, I should vote No on a principle. And the principle would be that I do not believe that the voting system should be changed, or not changed, because the electorate at a point in time indicated that was 'what it wanted'.

I would vote Yes in such a referendum (to decide whether there should be a referendum on changing the voting system) since I think there should always be a referendum on matters involving major constitutional change. Also, I think there should be an opportunity to consider the various merits of the different systems on offer, not merely the degree of proportionality and fairness - for instance, the issue of local accountability in PR systems with large electoral districts, or the disproportionate influence of small parties in coalition governments resulting from highly proportional systems (e.g. Israel). The other point is that if you don't think the electorate should have a choice in such matters, you are essentially relying on a governing party disinterestedly deciding to change the voting system from one which presumably heavily assisted it getting into power (FPTP) to one in which it is much less likely to get into power as a single-party government (PR): that isn't going to happen.

That said, I would probably vote for a PR system such as STV in any resultant referendum.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It seems a little perverse, unless I'm still misunderstanding you, to be for something unless people are calling for it. Unless people want it, whatever the given circunstances of deciding, it won't happen!

My first reaction, too - but the phrase "a referendum on whether there should be a referendum on voting reform" made me wonder if this had been suggested earlier in the Thread that I'd missed. frenchie wouldn't want to waste time on a referendum to see if people wanted to have a referendum on changing the voting system ... I think ...

[french frank]

It seems a little perverse, unless I'm still misunderstanding you, to be for something unless people are calling for it. Unless people want it, whatever the given circunstances of deciding, it won't happen!

It may seem perverse, but as a principle I don't think it is. If you see something which you feel is 'wrong' - and, vitally, can support an argument that it is 'wrong' - taking the view that, "Well, never mind if no one has complained, just leave things as they are" seems perverse.

I'm not sure that I understand what you're referring to here when you say 'unless people are calling for it'. PR? Which 'people'?

@aeolium

The other point is that if you don't think the electorate should have a choice in such matters, you are essentially relying on a governing party disinterestedly deciding to change the voting system from one which presumably heavily assisted it getting into power (FPTP) to one in which it is much less likely to get into power as a single-party government (PR): that isn't going to happen.

Can't disagree with that - Labour went into the 1997 election with the a pledge to have a referendum and had a landslide victory.

If I thought my 'No' to a referendum would be interpreted as No to reform, obviously I'd vote Yes …

[MrGongGong]

It is irrelevant whether PR would give power to people we don't like, or create alliances between people we don't like. The principle is that PR is fair and democratic and gives a voice to the many shades of opinion. (So, no, I haven't changed my view: that is my view of what democracy means.)

A principled Liberal :-) Lets hope you manage to spread this to the rest of them.

(Lets get rid of the Brown Windsors while we are at it !!!)

[french frank]

A principled Liberal :-)

:-)

Well, sometimes one does get the idea - as with the Billy Bragg comment quoted above - that the purpose of a voting system is to manoeuvre the result 'we' want, and prevent what we don't want; and that's what we base our opinion of what the 'best' system is ('You do realise that if we'd had PR ...?'). In fact, that's rigging the system.

[Beef Oven!]

:-)

Well, sometimes one does get the idea - as with the Billy Bragg comment quoted above - that the purpose of a voting system is to manoeuvre the result 'we' want, and prevent what we don't want; and that's what we base our opinion of what the 'best' system is ('You do realise that if we'd had PR ...?'). In fact, that's rigging the system.

Please don't quote that rural mockney Champagne socialist, please.

[StephenO]

A principled Liberal :-) Lets hope you manage to spread this to the rest of them.

There are quite a few of us about - an extra 10,000 since polling day, in fact.

(Lets get rid of the Brown Windsors while we are at it !!!)

No, let's not.

[Serial_Apologist]

that rural mockney Champagne socialist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Bragg

[MrGongGong]

No, let's not.

I thought you folks believed in 'democracy'?
Obviously not

[Barbirollians]

Very striking to see UKIP in meltdown within a week of the election ( see the Times tomorrow as a leading spokesman attacks Farage and after the scandal of UKIP trying to take Short money to employ staff for UKIP and not for Carswell which to his credit he has firmly rebuffed) . The early similarities with the meltdown of the BNP are striking - a far right wing party a personality cult leader . The only good thing about a referendum on EU membership - apart from the fact that the Tories will tear themselves apart over Europe just as they did in the mid 1990s is that if the UK votes to stay in as I think it will even though Cameron will get little from renegotiation ( which is what will lead to the civil war in the Tories) then UKIP are finished .

[Beef Oven!]

Very striking to see UKIP in meltdown within a week of the election ( see the Times tomorrow as a leading spokesman attacks Farage and after the scandal of UKIP trying to take Short money to employ staff for UKIP and not for Carswell which to his credit he has firmly rebuffed) . The early similarities with the meltdown of the BNP are striking - a far right wing party a personality cult leader . The only good thing about a referendum on EU membership - apart from the fact that the Tories will tear themselves apart over Europe just as they did in the mid 1990s is that if the UK votes to stay in as I think it will even though Cameron will get little from renegotiation ( which is what will lead to the civil war in the Tories) then UKIP are finished .

The UKIP in meltdown? LOL! Keep wishing!

Patrick O'Flynn was clearly banking on being the UKIP leader, and now that Nige has (understandably) unresigned, Patrick's throwing his toys out of the pram!

Carswell is one of the few MPs of principle in Westminster and his stance on the Labour inspired Short money con is worthy, but naive.

Due to the ridiculously little-Englander election first past the post system that the establishment keeps itself in power with, Carswell is the only MP representing the 4 million UKIP voters (we need a continental system). So the money would go to a good cause.

[MrGongGong]

Due to the ridiculously little-Englander election first past the post system that the establishment keeps itself in power with,

When you arrive late at a party you might find all the fine wine has gone..... UKIP never mentioned this before?

we need a continental system

Indeed we do
We could have a functional single currency
And share trade agreements with the other countries in Europe
How about we collaborate with them more?

Sounds a great plan

Looking forward to the UKIP plans for a federal Europe


"Patrick O'Flynn " ??

(To be said in a loud boorish rude voice) "WHO ARE YOU?, I'VE NEVER HEARD OF YOU"

[Beef Oven!]

No, we need a whole world system for those things, MrGongGong.

All nations controlling their own currencies, instead of the EUSSR system that sent Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain to the dogs while Germany and France prospered.

Free trade across the world, not just looking to Europe. Trade agreements with Pakistan, Jamaica, China, Russia, Mongolia, Argentina, Brazil...........

An immigration policy that does not discriminate against talented Africans, Indians and Arabs in favour of white Europeans.

That's a great plan.

When you arrive late at a party you might find all the fine wine has gone..... UKIP never mentioned this before?



Indeed we do
We could have a functional single currency
And share trade agreements with the other countries in Europe
How about we collaborate with them more?

Sounds a great plan

Looking forward to the UKIP plans for a federal Europe


"Patrick O'Flynn " ??

(To be said in a loud boorish rude voice) "WHO ARE YOU?, I'VE NEVER HEARD OF YOU"

[MrGongGong]

No, we need a whole world system for those things, MrGongGong.

All nations controlling their own currencies, instead of the EUSSR system that sent Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain to the dogs while Germany and France prospered.

Free trade across the world, not just looking to Europe. Trade agreements with Pakistan, Jamaica, China, Russia, Mongolia, Argentina, Brazil...........

An immigration policy that does not discriminate against talented Africans, Indians and Arabs in favour of white Europeans.

That's a great plan.

Fantasy island, all we ever dreamed of
True love holding us together
Star shine, fantasy island, oh I wish that we could stay like this forever


Excellent (mr Bond) we need the Illuminati world government

You are David Icke and I claim my Blue Peter Badge

[Beef Oven!]

Fantasy island, all we ever dreamed of
True love holding us together
Star shine, fantasy island, oh I wish that we could stay like this forever


Excellent (mr Bond) we need the Illuminati world government

You are David Icke and I claim my Blue Peter Badge

Why do you think that having a non racist immigration policy is a fantasy? Why discriminate against African, Indian and Arab musicians in favour of white Europeans?

What have you against having direct trade relationships with countries like Jamaica and Pakistan? Why do you want it at arms length, through our European cousins?

It's said that so much racism and xenophobia lurks behind policies and laws that we tout as progressive.