General election results 2015

[ahinton]

I reckon that we cane safely turn to Albert Einstein for a reliable clue as to why UKIP garnered so many vote:

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

But do you think that this applies also to the SNP vote and in reverse for the LibDem one?

[ahinton]

I find their analysis lacking in objectivity. For example, their dismissal of UKIP's appeal as racist scapegoating and xenophobia, shows an analysis on par with 1980s student rants.

Bad news for us who are interested in political analysis, but good news for UKIP who will be around for a long time if it's not understood what the reasons are as to why they are the third biggest partying, in terms of votes.

Well, that remains to be seen, I think. The number of votes polled for UKIP is what it is and, taken with those for the Greens, it is clear that some 5 million votes earned them one seat apiece, on top of which each party has/had a leader who is not one of its MPs; with no likelihood either of a change to FPTP in the foreseeable or even a single viable alternative thereto that could be guaranteed as fair to all parties and their supporters, taken toghether with the quite widely held suspicion that the departure of Mr Farage will likely signal gradual depletion of support for UKIP, the extent to which and the timescale within which UKIP will remain around as any kind of force - even that of a mere protest group - is at best open to question and, if Dave sees the in/out EU referendum through by the end of 2017 (as he's still promising post-election to do) and it goes the way that the Scottish one did, UKIP's death knell - at least as a credible political party with any kind of clout in Westmonster - will surely have been sounded.

How many of those who voted for UKIP (and that's more than half as many again as voted LibDem) will be other than profoundly disgruntled and disillusioned that, now that they've become the third party in terms of numbers of votes, the meteoric rise in their support will make not a scrap of difference in Parliament? The vast majority of them, I imagine! The same goes for the Greens.

[french frank]

The number of votes polled for UKIP is what it is and, taken with those for the Greens, it is clear that some 5 million votes earned them one seat apiece […]
How many of those who voted for UKIP (and that's more than half as many again as voted LibDem) will be other than profoundly disgruntled and disillusioned that, now that they've become the third party in terms of numbers of votes, the meteoric rise in their support will make not a scrap of difference in Parliament? The vast majority of them, I imagine! The same goes for the Greens.

What has happened is that we've gone from two major alternatives with a weak third 'force', to the same two major alternatives with a fragmentation of the third force. Even UKIP polled little more - with 624 candidates - than the SDP on its own polled in 1983, with less than half that number of candidates. With the Liberals in Alliance they had 7.5 million, 25% of the popular vote, compared with UKIP's 3.8m/ 13%.

[Dave2002]

Yes, that's a tired old cliché, to be sure, although I can speak from experience long ago when, on my only visit to Aberystwyth, I went into a pub where everyone seemed to be chatting in Welsh already but, as soon as I ordered something, they all suddenly stopped talking altogether; not the most pleasant experience that I've ever had...

I worked for a while in Sweden as some here may realise. If I went to meetings my Swedish colleagues switched to English, which they said they did out of politeness, and I believed them (I still do ... they were are really good crowd ... ). This seemed a little unfair, as I, as one English person would often be in a room with 10 or more others, who all switched to English just for my benefit. After a while I told them not to bother, as I would seek clarification if I needed it.

One day I asked my boss about languages, having noticed that when English visitors arrived, perhaps for negotiations, that the Swedes were at a potential advantage, because they could switch back into Swedish if they wanted to discuss matters in relative secrecy. "Ah", he said - "the ones with the greatest advantage are the Finns, because hardly anyone can understand them if they want to shut others out, and they can understand everything that everyone else says"

Having said that though, I have also found Finns easy to work with, but the point about language makes some sense.

We once went to see La Traviata in Helsinki - mrs d. booked the tickets - I'm not sure quite how, over the telephone - but she asked the box office lady "What language will the performance be in?" "Italian" was the reply "but don't worry, it'll be fine there'll be surtitles"

Yep indeed - an Italian opera with Finnish surtitles! Fortunately we knew the plot.

[MrGongGong]

erm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32696505

[french frank]

erm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32696505

Usually means they don't know who else they've got to replace him.

[MrGongGong]

Usually means they don't know who else they've got to replace him.

My mate Pete is a one man band :laugh:

[ahinton]

erm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32696505

Should any significance be read into the apparent fact that neither the LibDems nor the Labour Party has even tried, let alone succeeded, in persuading their respective resigned leaders to abandon their resignations and continue to lead after all? No, I thought not. "UKIP if you want to; the Farage is for turning" (must be a triple Farage, then - and wide enough to upstage Johnny two-Jags [remember him?])...

[Flosshilde]

This is a view that is heard a lot, mostly from English visitors, who like to imagine that everyone in the pub, or shop, or wherever was happily chatting away in English until the visitor appeared on the threshold, at which point they all switched to Welsh.

That is an experience I had when I was at college in Aberystwyth in 1971-2

[Dave2002]

That is an experience I had when I was at college in Aberystwyth in 1971-2

Though can you be sure? Isn't it a bit like opening the door of the fridge quickly to see if the light is on or off? :laugh: - still no emoticons, hah!

[jean]

That's what I was thinking!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

That is an experience I had when I was at college in Aberystwyth in 1971-2

I did happen in North Wales when I was there in the early 70s. The scenario was:-

Two Welsh speakers entered a shop, run by an English-speaking Welsh shopkeeper. Therefore, they spoke to the shopkeeper in English, and after being served, continued to chat to one another in English. Then an English person entered the shop, and the Welsh speakers immediately reverted to Welsh. (I was a fly-on-the-wall during this incident.)

I've already recalled on this forum an incident when I was the English person, in a different shop (in the early 80s) with Eine Alpensinfonietta. Two customers started talking about us in Welsh is a somewhat derisory way, not realising that I had spent nearly two years in "digs" in Bethesda, where I had to pick up some Welsh in order to survive. When EA2 asked me what they were talking about, I told him, in a clear voice. Suddenly, there was an embarrassed silence.

However, this joked-about rudeness is rare in Wales, and when it does happen, it gets blown out of all proportion. And it isn't confined to Welsh speakers.

Recently, my daughter married a fine young man who has a British father and a Spanish mother. They are all bilingual. When we are with them, the family will speak in English, but if they want to say something they don't want us to hear, they switch to Spanish, in the full knowledge that we will not understand a word of it.

[StephenO]

How many of those who voted for UKIP (and that's more than half as many again as voted LibDem) will be other than profoundly disgruntled and disillusioned that, now that they've become the third party in terms of numbers of votes, the meteoric rise in their support will make not a scrap of difference in Parliament? The vast majority of them, I imagine! The same goes for the Greens.

As long as the Tories and Labour (and now the SNP) continue to benefit from FPTP there's little or no chance of the electoral system ever being changed. As far as I'm concerned the fewer UKIP MPs there are the better but nevertheless how can anyone claim that our current system is democratic when a party can win nearly 13% of the vote and yet end up with only one seat in Parliament?

I've never understood the British abhorrence of coalition governments. They're the norm in most other European countries but for some reason we appear hopelessly wedded to the confrontational, yah-boo model of party politics which has done so much damage to Britain in previous decades. Our political culture seems to be based on a hatred of any party with which we disagree, a refusal to accept that any viewpoint other than our own can have the slightest validity and an inability to embrace compromise, labelling it instead as "deceit" and "dishonesty".

No wonder so many of our MPs behave like spoilt brats in a school playground and no wonder terms like "Tory scum" and "left wing scum" continue to be bandied about.

[jean]

However, this joked-about rudeness is rare in Wales, and when it does happen, it gets blown out of all proportion.

Exactly. So why is it being blown out of all proportion here - to the extent of being adduced as partly responsible for the weaknesses of Plaid as a political movement?

[gurnemanz]

They're the norm in most other European countries but for some reason we appear hopelessly wedded to the confrontational, yah-boo model of party politics which has done so much damage to Britain in previous decades. Our political culture seems to be based on a hatred of any party with which we disagree, a refusal to accept that any viewpoint other than our own can have the slightest validity and an inability to embrace compromise, labelling it instead as "deceit" and "dishonesty".

Boorish behaviour cannot be excused but for me the concept of opposition to the ruling party is a strength our system. In debates at school we learn how to marshal arguments in order to propose or oppose a motion. I think this is a healthy process. Our parliament is one of the oldest and I would not yet be prepared to abandon the adversarial rectangular pattern which has served us generally fairly well for centuries.