General election results 2015

[mangerton]

I don't think this bunch of spivs are the same "tories" at all.

No. They certainly are not. Harold Macmillan and Alec Douglas Home were men of an entirely different stamp.

[mangerton]

Wirral?
Dewsbury?
etc?

I think ff was referring to my earlier post #180. The tories retained their sole seat in Scotland, albeit with a greatly reduced majority.

[Anna]

The Tories didn't. They held on to 100% of their seats.

And (excluding Scotland for the moment) why has no-one commented about the reasons for the total collapse of Labour? Why blame the return of the Conservatives on the LibDems. Isn’t it true that the Labour brand is still toxic – people still haven’t forgiven Blair for war crimes, nor Brown for incompetence, that’s why they didn’t get the votes.. Marginals that were there for the taking simply weren’t gained and they lost as many seats to the Conservatives as they gained from them.

Ken Livingstone said Labour lost the working class vote during the Blairite years, which is why are Labour supporters voting UKIP, hence UKIP now second in the polls in South Wales Valleys and Labour support is down to 37% (where traditionally if you stuck a red rosette on a donkey people would vote for it) John Prescott says Miliband’s presidential style, and his plinth and his arrogance cost him the election, others say it’s Miliband being stuck in the 1970s with his left-wing intellectualism, whiff of Marxism, and talk of the evils of capitalism and the oppressed working classes simply failing to connect with ordinary people. There’s people saying get back to Nu-Labour, no let’s get back to Brown Labour say others. What do Labour voters here feel would make the party electable again?

Why not just reinvent Labour as a sort of replacement Liberal party? Otherwise they’ll never get back into power again.

[Honoured Guest]

What do Labour voters here feel would make the party electable again?

Five years of a Conservative majority Government.

[Dave2002]

No. They certainly are not. Harold Macmillan and Alec Douglas Home were men of an entirely different stamp.

And were they better? Different circumstances, different times! Did you miss out Heath deliberately?

[Dave2002]

You don't seem to think that people are put off by dishonesty and complicity

In some cases they are completely fooled by it, and in other cases they might applaud it. It's not only the LibDems who have attributes which you would consider to be dishonest - though I don't by any means agree with you on that.

You don't seriously think that either collectively or individually all the other parties and members of them are not at times dishonest, duplicitous and complicit with "bad" things do you? Sometimes a degree of disohonesty might be in the country's interest - including the people in it. Think back to Wilson and "the pound in your pocket" days, and even before that. Wilson devalued the pound without warning, which was perhaps the most sensible thing to do at the time. Brown sold off gold cheaply, and I gather he put a sign up advertising that - a bit of a blunder I hear, though I don't know all the details.

There was considerable dishoesty at the time of the Falklands war, at the time when Thatcher was the leader.

Blair took us into wars based on dodgy, and in some cases it seems ineptly fabricated evidence. WHether he was right to do so we will probably never know - as in Chairman Mao's comment about the French Revolution - "too early to tell", but we are aware that there was a lot of deception which could reasonably be described as dishonest.

Things generally seem much better now than fifty years or more ago, but that doesn't mean that everything is rosy, or that complete transparency is always desirable - given that there are other forces may be, for whatever reasons, trying to worki against our society.

[Stan Drews]

I like to see blue sea and sky around the coast of the county - much less do I like the blue tide that has swept inland.
Clearly St Ives was the last resort.

Try Fife!

[MrGongGong]

You don't seriously think that either collectively or individually all the other parties and members of them are not at times dishonest, duplicitous and complicit with "bad" things do you?

Of course not, they are all untrustworthy

Sometimes a degree of disohonesty might be in the country's interest - including the people in it.

Indeed, had there really been WMD [/QUOTE]

There was considerable dishoesty at the time of the Falklands war, at the time when Thatcher was the leader.

Which people (sadly IMV) seem to forgive

Blair took us into wars based on dodgy, and in some cases it seems ineptly fabricated evidence. WHether he was right to do so we will probably never know -

I think we do, he was wrong.

Things generally seem much better now than fifty years or more ago,

Depends on where in the world you live, even though we live on an island ......etc etc

[Stan Drews]

Scottish political mood: from a hill somewhere in Fife.

Things change; here, largely rural, there's an underlying conservatism/liberalism. Asquith was MP (1886 - 1918) for what is still the greater part of the constituency, but complicated by Scottish University seats [apparently elected by STV - thanks Wiki, and what happened to that method?]. Jo Grimond was born in St Andrews. Over the river, Churchill (Lib, at the time) represented Dundee; 1908-1922 - probably one of many low points in his over-inflated posthumous reputation.

Thereafter our area was represented by the local gentry as Unionists (NOT Conservatives) until retirement (the blessed John Smith had a go at a by-election in 1964). When Conservative Central Office tried out a London-based ingénue who won that time, he was soundly beaten by Ming Campbell - a decent man - at his third attempt 28 years ago. Last Thursday was an eye-opener for me; I had thought that an anti-Liberal/pro SNP vote would have let the Tory candidate in; he still came a poor third. SNP won. Personally, I took the risk of not voting LibDem for the first time in 30+ years, as I felt betrayed in so many ways.

We are not all rabid nationalists. We do, however, expect fair play and, alas, I see little sign of this in the weeks/months/years to come.

[MrGongGong]

We are not all rabid nationalists. We do, however, expect fair play and, alas, I see little sign of this in the weeks/months/years to come.

Well put

Cimbasso's at dawn?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

What do Labour voters here feel would make the party electable again?

John Smith Labour. He was was far and away the best Labour leader during my lifetime.

[Dave2002]

John Smith Labour. He was was far and away the best Labour leader during my lifetime.

:laugh: - OK no smileys here!

If we're bringing back the dead, then I had a soft spot for Harold Wilson - perhaps misguided - but I quite liked him. He probably was the right person for his times. Later on, when he moved to the Scilly Isles he would be seen walking about, and thought he'd been a school teacher in Huyton. His wife had to remind him he'd actually been PM. He had no recollection. A bit sad.

Blair would have been OK if we hadn't discovered that a lot of what he said was tosh/bs, and now he seems to be looking after himself rather well. Now there's self interest for you!

Now time to answer EA's question.

[french frank]

I think ff was referring to my earlier post #180. The tories retained their sole seat in Scotland, albeit with a greatly reduced majority.

Yes, it was #180 I was quoting.

Ken Livingstone said Labour lost the working class vote during the Blairite years, which is why are Labour supporters voting UKIP

People have always said the Labour party was a 'broad church' - and broad enough to contain Marxists, who preferred not to support small groups like SWP/WRP, and right-wing trade unionists, political conservatives who couldn't conceive of not 'sticking to their class'. With such a wide, inclusive sweep they were always the alternative major force to the Tories. But trade unionism has declined (though not the culture) and a succession of 'third parties' have come on the scene. Too many 'alternatives'? The left-of-Tory has become very fuzzy, more so than the right-of-Tory.

[Quarky]

As it's clear people do want to discuss this, feel free …

ff - you do an excellent job of policing/ shepherding these discussions. However listening to the appeal for musicians on R4 this morning:

https://www.helpmusicians.org.uk/

I can't help feeling that some of the virulent political views expressed from time to time on these boards will antagonise those in powerful positions and in a position to fund arts projects.

[Frances_iom]

John Smith Labour. He was was far and away the best Labour leader during my lifetime.

but he is buried alongside the ancient Kings of Scotland - Labour's best hope for future (once it gets rid of the wonks and other careeer politicians) is that the Tories will implode over Europe but to be honest I can't see this happening as one thing easy to say about the Tories is that they put principles well below self preservation + self interest.