Militant students at Warwick

[Beef Oven!]

This is a theory plucked from nowhere other than government propaganda.

How is "strong democratic processes ensure that 'appropriate' people are involved in, and are able to influence "important Things", plucked out of nowhere? It's bog-standard A'level Politics stuff.

Can you not disentangle your strongly held views about how you are right about how our children are educated, from what I actually said?

The Coalition's idea of consultation is telling professionals what they are going to do and ignoring virtually all counter-proposals. It was the same in education when Academies were grabbed from LEAs by the rushing through of draconian legislation. The only people who had any say from then onwards were the department of education, head teachers and amateur school governors.

That clearly did not happen with the consultants' contract review a few years back - try to look outside of the 'teacher's silo'.

And why do you complain about Headteachers being involved? Aren't they best placed of all teachers? I know if I was running a consultation process on education, I'd want to talk to headteachers more than their reports.

[MrGongGong]

On a very general point: if governments are to be entirely guided on all issues by 'experts', the people who 'know', you can entirely do without elections and political parties. What would people be voting for?

I was under the impression that governments WERE guided by experts?
It would be good if they actually listened for once.

[Beef Oven!]

I wonder why it is then that 95% of doctors disagree with the Cameron government's health care policies.

The consultants' contract changes had nothing to do with Cameron or any subsequent health care policies that you may be thinking about - your post is irrelevant to the example I gave.

[Richard Barrett]

The consultants' contract changes had nothing to do with Cameron.

OK but surely this is a fairly decisive counterexample to your idea that Strong democratic processes ensure that that 'appropriate' people are involved in, and are able to influence "important things".

[Beef Oven!]

In your dreams matey
education (as Alpen points out) being a case in point
or Professor Nutt ?

You may not believe that Gove's education policies were subject to "strong democratic" process. From what I've learnt, I may agree. But please, every time we talk about consultation and democracy, can you and your partners in crime please stop bleating about Gove!!? It gets in the way.

[Beef Oven!]

OK but surely this is a fairly decisive counterexample to your idea that Strong democratic processes ensure that that 'appropriate' people are involved in, and are able to influence "important things".

Not in the slightest. It could mean that the policies weren't subject to a strong democratic process, or they were, but the doctors don't agree with the outcome.

[Richard Barrett]

you can entirely do without elections and political parties

Political parties basically exist in order to represent the interests of different political/economic classes. The crisis of democracy we're talking about is the result of almost all political parties in a country like the UK representing the interests of the same class, with marginally different emphases. In the ideal situation of a classless society political parties would indeed not be needed because there wouldn't be any conflicting class interests. This in turn would require a more participatory kind of democracy than the present one.

[Richard Barrett]

It could mean that the policies weren't subject to a strong democratic process, or they were, but the doctors don't agree with the outcome.

95% of doctors disagreeing with the outcome might indicate that the "democratic process" was almost nonexistent. On the other hand a fifth of coalition MPs have links to the private health care industry which is perhaps indicative of why that might be the case.

[MrGongGong]

You may not believe that Gove's education policies were subject to "strong democratic" process. From what I've learnt, I may agree. But please, every time we talk about consultation and democracy, can you and your partners in crime please stop bleating about Gove!!? It gets in the way.

So you mean to say that

Strong democratic processes ensure that that 'appropriate' people are involved in, and are able to influence "important things"

excluding, of course, all the examples that show the opposite.

So leaving the unimportant matter of education aside for a moment
Professor Nutt ? (and I don't mean our old chum)

[french frank]

Political parties basically exist in order to represent the interests of different political/economic classes. The crisis of democracy we're talking about is the result of almost all political parties in a country like the UK representing the interests of the same class, with marginally different emphases. In the ideal situation of a classless society political parties would indeed not be needed because there wouldn't be any conflicting class interests. This in turn would require a more participatory kind of democracy than the present one.

So the interesting question is how, in practical terms, one achieves the ideal classless society?

[Richard Barrett]

So the interesting question is how, in practical terms, one achieves the ideal classless society?

Of course the first stab at an answer was made by Marx and Engels... while their analysis is I think still valid in many important ways it may be that the idea of the industrial working class being the agent of revolutionary change needs revising in the light of its atomisation particularly in the rich world. Jean-Luc Mélenchon's recent book L'ère du peuple is interesting on this point, and there are an increasing number of other writers engaging with these problems. But class systems have been around for a very long time so it's unreasonable to expect that there's any magic or painless way to get beyond them, especially since those with vested interests in their continuation are the people with policeforces, weapons, economic leverage etc. IMO it will probably take a crisis (economic/environmental/epidemiological/population-related...) more extreme than any so far experienced to force things in that direction.

[ahinton]

Not in the slightest. It could mean that the policies weren't subject to a strong democratic process, or they were, but the doctors don't agree with the outcome.

But whichever way that might have been, what price the situation when government invites an independent professional opinion in respect of forthcoming legislation, receives and publishes it and then rides roughshod over its every sentence? Where's the democratic process in that?

[P. G. Tipps]

So the interesting question is how, in practical terms, one achieves the ideal classless society?

I hesitate to be a wet blanket and proceed to dampen revolutionary hopes but, whether one thinks a classless society would ever be ideal or not, the lessons of human history weigh heavily against the successful building of such a society, I fear.

Humans can't be all leaders or all followers, we need both, and any replacement leaders will simply form a new privileged and elite class.

Witness the Marxist-Leninist regimes in Eastern Europe prior to the collapse of communism and the 'Communist' China of today?

[MrGongGong]

Humans can't be all leaders or all followers, we need both, and any replacement leaders will simply form a new privileged and elite class.

I suggest you join a free improvisation ensemble or even a string quartet playing Mozart
you might then learn that the world isn't divided into "leaders" and "followers"

[ahinton]

I suggest you join a free improvisation ensemble or even a string quartet playing Mozart
you might then learn that the world isn't divided into "leaders" and "followers"

Perhaps he's not a string player! But yes, you're right, of course; there will be leaders and there will be followers but then there will also be those who may lead in some areas but at the same time follow in others - and well as others whose destiny is not to "lead" at all but that fact of itself in no wise undermines their value.