Militant students at Warwick

[ahinton]

The question is fine. Are there other lefts, and, now that we've had a definition of the Faux-left, let's have a definition of the "real left"?(especially given the mysterious inverted commas put there by RB). Unless the "real left" is all those who are not the Faux-left.

I cited above 46 examples of organisations all of which I think could be reasonably be argued as representative of factions of the (real) left and, whilst those may not necessary represent a comprehensive listing, they are almost all organisations that do not support the "official" Labour Party whom many on the left have long felt are no longer representative of the "left"; in that sense, one might indeed have said (as you suggest) that "the "real left" is all those who are not the Faux-left" were it not for the fact that few here seem to be certain as to who or what the "Faux-left" actually are.

That said, I think that most people have at least some idea of what is meant by the "left" and the point at issue here seems to me to be that there is not and has not for quite some time been a single political party or other organisation that is representative of the "left". That this means that there is no real organised political "opposition" as such within UK and this has been the case ever since Thatcher's desire to move all parties to the right began to result in the narrowing of differences between them and the ever greater dissemblings within each of them.

[Serial_Apologist]

The question is fine. Are there other lefts, and, now that we've had a definition of the Faux-left, let's have a definition of the "real left"?(especially given the mysterious inverted commas put there by RB). Unless the "real left" is all those who are not the Faux-left.

Since it was yourself and PGTipps who first raised the notion of a Faux-Left, I asked one or both of you to come up with a True Left definition.

The simplest definition would be the true believers in left wing ideals versus the false, but that has always been true and varies from era to era, "left" being equivalent now to New Deal politics in the States in the 1930s and Tory One Nation politics in the 1950s, so far to the right the putative "centre" of politics has drifted.

So, if the concept of "left" therefore as subject to vagaries of relativism as anything else, wouldn't it be more useful to debate to drop this left/false left dichotomy?

[P. G. Tipps]

Since it was yourself and PGTipps who first raised the notion of a Faux-Left, I asked one or both of you to come up with a True Left definition.

The simplest definition would be the true believers in left wing ideals versus the false, but that has always been true and varies from era to era, "left" being equivalent now to New Deal politics in the States in the 1930s and Tory One Nation politics in the 1950s, so far to the right the putative "centre" of politics has drifted.

So, if the concept of "left" therefore as subject to vagaries of relativism as anything else, wouldn't it be more useful to debate to drop this left/false left dichotomy?

Of course that would suit your particular narrative but you can hardly expect to get away with it!

The point about the Faux-Left is that it's members do not practise what they preach. They continually tell others that if a family member is ill they should wait in a NHS queue for treatment but then avail themselves of private services if something similar occurs in their own family. They demand that there should be no private education for others but send their own kids to fee-paying schools. They espouse socialism but live in large expensive properties, often owning more than one.There is no equivalent hypocrisy on the Right, whatever other undoubted faults may well lie there.

The real Left is someone like Dennis Skinner MP who makes a point of practising what he preaches. You do not have to like Skinner or his class-based brand of politics to recognise that the man is wholly genuine and always consistent.

The fact that it is difficult to think of many more like Skinner only demonstrates just how many of the Faux-Left are around these days!

[Beef Oven!]

I cited above 46 examples of organisations all of which I think could be reasonably be argued as representative of factions of the (real) left and, whilst those may not necessary represent a comprehensive listing, they are almost all organisations that do not support the "official" Labour Party whom many on the left have long felt are no longer representative of the "left"; in that sense, one might indeed have said (as you suggest) that "the "real left" is all those who are not the Faux-left" were it not for the fact that few here seem to be certain as to who or what the "Faux-left" actually are.

That said, I think that most people have at least some idea of what is meant by the "left" and the point at issue here seems to me to be that there is not and has not for quite some time been a single political party or other organisation that is representative of the "left". That this means that there is no real organised political "opposition" as such within UK and this has been the case ever since Thatcher's desire to move all parties to the right began to result in the narrowing of differences between them and the ever greater dissemblings within each of them.

To use a cliche, sometimes less is more.

[Richard Barrett]

There is no equivalent hypocrisy on the Right

(picks himself up off the floor) Where to begin?

So Dennis Skinner is the only example of the "real left" as far as you can see. But what about these "faux left" people you so blithely generalise about? How many of them can you name? There's Diane Abbott, whose hypocrisy on private schooling is a matter of public record, but on the other hand does she to your knowledge "continually tell others that if a family member is ill they should wait in a NHS queue for treatment but then avail themselves of private services if something similar occurs in their own family"? Do you know that she lives in a large expensive property? I may be wrong but I believe she lives in a house that was fairly cheap at the time when she bought it. (She was a neighbour of mine in Hackney in the early 1990s as well as being my MP.) So she seems to fall down on most of the criteria for being a "faux-leftist" unless you have information I'm not privy to. Any other "faux-leftists" you could name? Do they also conform similarly tenuously to your criteria?

I put "real left" in inverted commas because I'm not that keen on the term "left-wing" and its numerous variants. For example I would describe my own political commitment not as "left-wing" but as socialist. It's a much clearer way to put things, for reasons S-A has already described.

[Beef Oven!]

I remember when Anthony Wedgwood Benn became Tony Benn and drove around in a rusty bronze (?) coloured ford escort estate. Funnily enough, I was sharing a crap Mark 1 escort with my sister at the time. Anthony was being very Faux!

And Russell Brand (formally working class from the leafy lanes of Essex) lives in unaffordable Hoxton, where my dad's side of the family hail from, but he could never afford to live there now!

And where has Owen Jones (born and bred middle class) decided to live? 'Working class' Hackney! Faux, faux, faux!!!!!

I wish, years ago, they'd made it planer that they wanted to be working class, drive shit cars and live in the east end, millions of us could've swapped places with them and saved a lifetime of hard work!!! LOL!!!!

[Beef Oven!]

Since most of the people in here wouldn't know a "real left" person, even if they fell out of a council block balcony and hit them on the head, I'll name one to help you all.

Ricky Tomlinson. A true socialist by word and deed.

[ahinton]

To use a cliche, sometimes less is more.

Ah, sometimes, yes! But in this context, less of what? Less of the left? Of the so-called but as yet undefined "faux left"? Or something else?

[Serial_Apologist]

Ricky Tomlinson. A true socialist by word and deed.

... who at one time in his own admission supported the National Front. So the distance he has since travelled politically is much greater than yours will need to be.

[Beef Oven!]

... who at one time in his own admission supported the National Front. So the distance he has since travelled politically is much greater than yours will need to be.

LOL! You just don't understand the working class, do you!!!!?

[P. G. Tipps]

Well, I don't want to turn this into a personal vendetta against Ms Abbott as she is probably pretty typical of the Labour Front Benches! She owns three properties, apparently, though that may well be shared by her husband. She is on record as having to apologise to the House of Commons for failing to reveal earnings from the BBC and has also made comments which, by any poltically-correct yardstick, were clearly 'racist'. Harriet Harman & Tristram Hunt are two others of the Faux-Left who immediately spring to mind, when it comes to private wealth and education.

I'm genuinely surprised some attempt to defend these politicians who say one thing for the hoi-polloi and do the exact opposite themselves. Btw, I'm not suggesting there are no hypocrites on the Right ... of course there are, and we all are to varying degrees ... it's just that it's very hard to find one on the Right when it comes to political viewpoint and associated behaviour!

That's not meant to be in any way complimentary merely a statement of the pretty obvious, I'd have thought ...

[Serial_Apologist]

LOL! You just don't understand the working class, do you!!!!?

Your cryptic remarks mean nothing to me.

[Beef Oven!]

Well, I don't want to turn this into a personal vendetta against Ms Abbott as she is probably pretty typical of the Labour Front Benches! She owns three properties, apparently, though that may well be shared by her husband. She is on record as having to apologise to the House of Commons for failing to reveal earnings from the BBC and has also made comments which, by any poltically-correct yardstick, were clearly 'racist'. Harriet Harman & Tristram Hunt are two others of the Faux-Left who immediately spring to mind, when it comes to private wealth and education.

I'm genuinely surprised some attempt to defend these politicians who say one thing for the hoi-polloi and do the exact opposite themselves. Btw, I'm not suggesting there are no hypocrites on the Right ... of course there are, and we all are to varying degrees ... it's just that it's very hard to find one on the Right when it comes to political viewpoint and associated behaviour!

That's not meant to be in any way complimentary merely a statement of the pretty obvious, I'd have thought ...

Billy Bragg - Faux left - Education

They're everywhere, goddammitt!

[Beef Oven!]

Your cryptic remarks mean nothing to me.

...........O, Vienna!

[teamsaint]

...........O, Vienna!

no regets, then?