The Remembrance Day thread

[P. G. Tipps]

Don't be silly, scotty ... as wrong as current Israeli policy may well be, to seriously compare this to the rampaging, totalitarian likes of a Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia is, frankly, absurd. Israel is a democracy where the people can peacefully demand change at elections.

War (even a just one) should only be considered as a final resort, when every other avenue has been exhausted, in self-defence and/or in order to defeat a particularly brutal, dictatorial tyranny.

[Beef Oven!]

I quoted an official website on what the event is officially about. It is silent on the matter of enemy soldiers, yes. Surely a statement of what it's about doesn't have to include a list of what it isn't about. (It's the DCMS not an internet forum.)

I know what you were quoting, and it does not explicitly say anything concerning what it's not about. As you now say, it doesn't have to include a list of what it isn't about - and it doesn't. What you said earlier is wrong, that's all.

[amateur51]

Don't be silly, scotty ... as wrong as current Israeli policy may well be, to seriously compare this to the rampaging, totalitarian likes of a Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia is, frankly, absurd. Israel is a democracy where the people can peacefully demand change at elections.

War (even a just one) should only be considered as a final resort, when every other avenue has been exhausted, in self-defence and/or in order to defeat a particularly brutal, dictatorial tyranny.

Hitler was elected democratically scotty.

[amateur51]

I know what you were quoting, and it does not explicitly say anything concerning what it's not about. As you now say, it doesn't have to include a list of what it isn't about - and it doesn't. What you said earlier is wrong, that's all.

Seems to me that Remembrance Sunday is about whatever it is that will cause people to stick their hands in their pockets, according to what audience is being addressed.

Mission creep, anyone?

Some Mission.

Some creep.

[Richard Barrett]

Israel is a democracy where the people can peacefully demand change at elections.

Israel is a democracy where some people can vote in elections, but actually nobody can vote for a mainstream party which doesn't support illegal occupation, illegal settlements and the treatment of the Gaza Strip as an overcrowded prison camp that periodically gets flattened by bombing. How democratic is that?

As for Jesus, what he said was something to do with turning the other cheek I believe. I don't think he (is reported to have) said anything which could be construed as condoning war of any kind. That was added to the "Christian" tradition later on. "So the French Resistance against Nazism was wrong?" No I don't think it was wrong, despite being what would now be termed a terrorist organisation. But I don't claim to be a Christian either.

[P. G. Tipps]

Hitler was elected democratically scotty.

'Democratically'? He was elected in 1933 after the Reichstag fire and after many opposition groups were banned so the elections could hardly be considered 'free and fair', scotty.

However, my point was not that democracies never elect bad leaders, simply that in a true democracy there is always an opportunity of removing bad leaders peacefully!

[Beef Oven!]

"......Resistance against Nazism was wrong?" No I don't think it was wrong, despite being what would now be termed a terrorist organisation......"

Either your understanding of the French Resistance is wrong, or your understanding of what we would now term a terrorist organisation is wrong. Which one is it?

[Richard Barrett]

in a true democracy there is always an opportunity of removing bad leaders peacefully!

Not if all leadership candidates are "bad", as is often the case.

[MrGongGong]

I see no evidence that Jesus was a 'pacifist'.

That's the funniest thing i've read for ages

So the French resistance against Nazism was wrong?

I think you will find what that comment is in this document

http://www.ombudsmanwatchers.org.uk/articles/fallacy.html

[P. G. Tipps]

As for Jesus, what he said was something to do with turning the other cheek I believe. I don't think he (is reported to have) said anything which could be construed as condoning war of any kind. That was added to the "Christian" tradition later on. "So the French Resistance against Nazism was wrong?" No I don't think it was wrong, despite being what would now be termed a terrorist organisation. But I don't claim to be a Christian either.

I expected the 'turning the other cheek' argument as that is often used to justify pacifism. You appeared not to bother about what a website 'didn't say' in a separate post, now you seem to be basing your argument entirely on what Jesus 'didn't say'! Christ was clearly talking about the virtue of being able to resist personal provocation, which I have sometimes failed miserably to do on this forum, I humbly concede!

Though I think it's wrong to steal, I may well do so if this is the only way to stop me starving to death or to save the life of another. Jesus 'didn't say' it was wrong to do that either. Extreme circumstances might dictate that we take actions which would be considered wrong in more 'normal' times.

It's exactly the same with war ... sometimes, however much we are opposed to the idea of war itself, we have little choice to engage in it other than to surrender meekly to blatant evil, which Christ definitely did oppose!

Here's something on 'turning the other cheek' ...

http://www.gotquestions.org/turn-other-cheek.html

[MrGongGong]

I always thought the
"thou shalt not kill" bit was kind of fundamental ?
But you learn something new every day don't you.

"Thou shalt not kill unless, of course, there's oil, and we could really use some of that"

[Richard Barrett]

Scotty, your link on "turning the other cheek" is as slippery as your own arguments! Are you sure you didn't write it yourself? Let's look at the scripture:

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

Luke 6:27-29 But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

Matthew 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Matthew 7:12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.

Romans 12:17-21 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. (...) Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God (...) Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good .

2 Corinthians 10:4 The weapons with which we fight are not human weapons, but are mighty for God in overthrowing strong fortresses.

And so on. That all looks rather like a pacifist manifesto to me.

[P. G. Tipps]

I always thought the
"thou shalt not kill" bit was kind of fundamental ?
But you learn something new every day don't you.

"Thou shalt not kill unless, of course, there's oil, and we could really use some of that"

Mr GongGong, can I ask you a serious question, please ... ? (apologies in advance to Flosshilde and ahinton!)

If somebody was threatening to kill your son and then armed police arrived and told you the only sure way of preventing the madman killing your son was to try and shoot him first and one police marksman (a Christian, as it happens) did just that and thankfully your son was saved, would you then angrily approach the said marksman and shout at him .. 'Oi, mate, did you know that it says THOU SHALT NOT KILL in that silly bible of yours? ... you are a ***** hypocrite, and people like you are the main reason I left the church as a teenager!'

Really ... ?

[Richard Barrett]

Someone who calls themselves a Christian should not be prepared to be a "police marksman". What's so complicated about that?

[MrGongGong]

Mr GongGong, can I ask you a serious question, please ... ? (apologies in advance to Flosshilde and ahinton!)

If somebody was threatening to kill your son and then armed police arrived and told you the only sure way of preventing the madman killing your son was to try and shoot him first and one police marksman (a Christian, as it happens) did just that and thankfully your son was saved, would you then angrily approach the said marksman and shout at him .. 'Oi, mate, did you know that it says THOU SHALT NOT KILL in that silly bible of yours? ... you are a ***** hypocrite, and people like you are the main reason I left the church as a teenager!'

Really ... ?

The problem with this kind of fictional scenario (my dad used to do the "Nazis in jackboots breaking down the door" routine as well) is that it contains so many assumptions.
For a start, what Richard said
For seconds I always thought one of the good points about Christianity was that it wasn't just a safety net for people in desperate situations.The REAL Christians I have met extend the idea of spreading good to their whole lives (even though I don't personally believe in the reason why they might be doing it!).
If someone was threatening to kill my children I probably would try and do them in
BUT as we all live in a society we have mechanisms to prevent me doing so, which is quite right.

I don't accept your "Only way"
a bit of a "see foot, take aim, shoot" example Gary
If I was on a tube in Stockwell and the "only way" ????

The state and the individual aren't the same
Working to achieve a non-violent world doesn't necessarily mean allowing nasty people to have their own way.
More imagination is required