The Remembrance Day thread

[MrGongGong]

Christian ministers are supposed to be there for everyone whatever situation they find themselves in.

Like the Pope before the battle of Béziers you mean?

Most Christians have absolutely no problem with sincere 'conscientious objection'.

How generous of them

Christianity (as opposed to Paulism or any other 'doctrines') IS a pacifist religion ....... END
That's what CHRIST was supposed to have taught

I hate this hypocrisy (which is the main reason I abandoned the church as a teenager) more than DoG or McCartney

[Beef Oven!]

I hate this hypocrisy (which is the main reason I abandoned the church as a teenager)

That's about the fifth main reason you've given, in as many weeks!

How many main reasons can a man have!!!!!!!!!

[MrGongGong]

That's about the fifth main reason you've given, in as many weeks!

How many main reasons can a man have!!!!!!!!!

Actually you will find they are all the same thing

Christian soldiers = Vegan Butchers IMV

[ahinton]

I could think of a much more welcome favour.

Well, so could I, of course but, in the specific context concerned, it would nevertheless not come especially amiss...

[Richard Barrett]

What we are remembering or, better still, reflecting upon is the sacrifice that was made by the young men of earlier generations that we may enjoy the freedoms we do today

... which begs (at least) two questions.

Firstly, how does that relate in any way to the First World War? (to name only this)

Secondly, many thousands of young German conscripts died in the Second World War, making that same "sacrifice" on behalf of a brutal dictatorship - is that not worth reflecting upon too?

[P. G. Tipps]

Like the Pope before the battle of Béziers you mean?

No I wasn't thinking of the Dark Ages, eight centuries ago, Mr GongGong ... sorry about that. Even my idea of 'Remembrance' doesn't quite stretch that far ...

How generous of them
Christianity (as opposed to Paulism or any other 'doctrines') IS a pacifist religion ....... END
That's what CHRIST was supposed to have taught

It depends on what you mean by 'pacifist', Mr GongGong, which is why authorised dictionaries are so important and your refusal to consult them so self-defeating!

The normal definition of 'pacifism' means those who believe it is wrong to take up arms against fellow human-beings under any circumstances. Most of us believe that on some very unwelcome occasions to go to war might be considered a lesser evil than to do nothing. As has been mentioned WWII is probably the best recent example. This is recognised in orthodox, mainstream Christian teaching. Whilst it is clearly wrong and contrary to Christian teaching for a person or state to kill for personal or political gain it may be unavoidable in the self-defence of oneself or the state in some cases. However, it is all down to the conscience of the individual in the end and this is respected by the Church.

I hate this hypocrisy (which is the main reason I abandoned the church as a teenager) more than DoG or McCartney

Reminds me of the old Irish Catholic joke ...

Father O'Reilly was walking down the street when he came across Paddy who had just staggered out of a nearby pub ...

'Hullo there, Paddy, how are you, then? We haven't seen you at Mass recently and wondered whether you were okay ...?'

'Well, Father', Paddy replied, 'the truth is I simply can't be doin' sitting with that bunch of hypocrites any longer.'

'Well now, Paddy, in that case will the presence of just another one really make all that much of a difference ... ?

:winkeye:

[P. G. Tipps]

Secondly, many thousands of young German conscripts died in the Second World War, making that same "sacrifice" on behalf of a brutal dictatorship - is that not worth reflecting upon too?

Yes, of course ... and there have been plenty of examples in recent years of old conscripts from both sides joining hands and remembering ALL the dead.

I think most people can distinguish between the ordinary, brave German soldiers and the Nazi thugs who ruled over them.

[MrGongGong]

The normal definition of 'pacifism' means those who believe it is wrong to take up arms against fellow human-beings under any circumstances. Most of us believe that on some very unwelcome occasions to go to war might be considered a lesser evil than to do nothing. As has been mentioned WWII is probably the best recent example. This is recognised in orthodox, mainstream Christian teaching. Whilst it is clearly wrong and contrary to Christian teaching for a person or state to kill for personal or political gain it may be unavoidable in the self-defence of oneself or the state in some cases. However, it is all down to the conscience of the individual in the end and this is respected by the Church.

HA HA HA

Onward Vegan Butchers ?
Nice to see the church "respecting" the need for the occasional bloodbath.


The "teaching" of the mainstream church is therefore completely at odds with the teaching of the person who is supposed to have started it.
The whole "just war" get out is just like what the Pope did before the battle of Béziers.

Disestablishment is well overdue.

[Richard Barrett]

Yes, of course ... and there have been plenty of examples in recent years of old conscripts from both sides joining hands and remembering ALL the dead.

That however is explicitly not what Remembrance Sunday is about; nor is it what Petrushka's post I was responding to was about.

By any definition Jesus appears to have been a pacifist. I don't imagine he would have made an exception for "the self-defence of... the state". Therefore it seems that any "teaching" that condones this sort of thing is not really Christian. Oh, I see that MrGG has already said this. Anyway, if we were all as Christian (or as Muslim, or as Jewish, or as Buddhist etc.) as some of us claim to be, there wouldn't be any need for states to defend themselves; indeed, there wouldn't be any need for states either.

[Beef Oven!]

That however is explicitly not what Remembrance Sunday is about.........

Explicitly not what it's about? No, it's silent on the matter. What it is not about, is not explicated - implied at most (and I personally don't think such an implication is there)- but even then there is nothing wrong with people additionally remembering all the dead. And I suppose many people do.

[amateur51]

Explicitly not what it's about? No, it's silent on the matter. What it is not about, is not explicated - implied at most (and I personally don't think such an implication is there)- but even then there is nothing wrong with people additionally remembering all the dead. And I suppose many people do.

You'll be in big trouble with the gong-wearers in RBL if you carry on like this.

Beware the knock at midnight!

[MrGongGong]

You'll be in big trouble with the gong-wearers in RBL if you carry on like this.

Indeed

Reminds me of the Falklands memorial service affair

[Richard Barrett]

I quoted an official website on what the event is officially about. It is silent on the matter of enemy soldiers, yes. Surely a statement of what it's about doesn't have to include a list of what it isn't about. (It's the DCMS not an internet forum.)

[P. G. Tipps]

That however is explicitly not what Remembrance Sunday is about; nor is it what Petrushka's post I was responding to was about.

Well it may well mean different things to different people. No doubt there are those who think it is a celebration of war and those who simply continue to only remember the British military dead. However that's certainly not the case for myself and many others.

If you search for 'Remembrance Day' in Google you immediately come across the following:

'11 November
Armistice Day is on 11 November and is also known as Remembrance Day. It marks the day World War One ended, at 11am on the 11th day of the 11th month, back in 1918. A two minute silence is held at 11am to remember the people who have died in wars.
'

Also the BBC seems to be informing its young viewers very much the same:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/15492752

By any definition Jesus appears to have been a pacifist. I don't imagine he would have made an exception for "the self-defence of... the state". Therefore it seems that any "teaching" that condones this sort of thing is not really Christian. Oh, I see that MrGG has already said this. Anyway, if we were all as Christian (or as Muslim, or as Jewish, or as Buddhist etc.) as some of us claim to be, there wouldn't be any need for states to defend themselves; indeed, there wouldn't be any need for states either.

I see no evidence that Jesus was a 'pacifist'. He certainly preached for the establishment of a peaceful human order which is a different thing entirely!

So the French resistance against Nazism was wrong? The Poles had no right to try and resist when the Germans and Russians carved up their country between them? Londoners should just have shrugged their shoulders when they saw their friends and relatives burning to death in bombed-out parts of their city?. We should have done nothing to try and help those in the Nazi Hell-Camps?

It is certainly no part of Christian tradition to walk by on the other side and not aid and defend the weakest, which may well include ourselves, I humbly submit.

There will always be people like Hitler and Stalin in the world. I can think of no greater support for the concept of a 'just war' than the armed resistances against the likes of thuggish, aggressive regimes like Nazi Germany and Communist Russia.

[amateur51]

Well it may well mean different things to different people. No doubt there are those who think it is a celebration of war and those who simply continue to only remember the British military dead. However that's certainly not the case for myself and many others.

If you search for 'Remembrance Day' in Google you immediately come across the following:

'11 November
Armistice Day is on 11 November and is also known as Remembrance Day. It marks the day World War One ended, at 11am on the 11th day of the 11th month, back in 1918. A two minute silence is held at 11am to remember the people who have died in wars.
'

Also the BBC seems to be informing its young viewers very much the same:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/15492752

I see no evidence that Jesus was a 'pacifist'. He certainly preached for the establishment of a peaceful human order which is a different thing entirely!

So the French resistance against Nazism was wrong? The Poles had no right to try and resist when the Germans and Russians carved up their country between them? Londoners should just have shrugged their shoulders when they saw their friends and relatives burning to death in bombed-out parts of their city?. We should have done nothing to try and help those in the Nazi Hell-Camps?

It is certainly no part of Christian tradition to walk by on the other side and not aid and defend the weakest, which may well include ourselves, I humbly submit.

There will always be people like Hitler and Stalin in the world. I can think of no greater support for the concept of a 'just war' than the armed resistances against the likes of thuggish, aggressive regimes like Nazi Germany and Communist Russia.

Would you include Netanyahu and Israel in your select list of thuggish aggressive regimes, scotty?