The Remembrance Day thread

[ahinton]

Christian ministers are supposed to be there for everyone whatever situation they find themselves in.

Everyone, yes - including those who deplore war in all its forms and wish overtly to take whatever stand they can against it on account of the massive human and economic waste to which it invariably and inevitably gives rise - or is my definition of "everyone" too - er - comprehensive for your convenience, PGT? - in other words, by "everyone", do you actually mean only "everyone who appens to share your own 'right-thinking' view"? (and you may interpret "right" here in whichever way you choose)...

[P. G. Tipps]

Too right it is!

Looks like even ahinton can't explain what he posted, Flosshilde, so I await your revelation with no little interest!

[P. G. Tipps]

Everyone, yes - including those who deplore war in all its forms and wish overtly to take whatever stand they can against it on account of the massive human and economic waste to which it invariably and inevitably gives rise - or is my definition of "everyone" too - er - comprehensive for your convenience, PGT? - in other words, by "everyone", do you actually mean only "everyone who appens to share your own 'right-thinking' view"? (and you may interpret "right" here in whichever way you choose)...

I mean EVERYONE ... this is where dictionaries come in very handy but a complete waste of time suggesting such an obvious solution here, I think!

[ahinton]

What we are remembering or, better still, reflecting upon is the sacrifice that was made by the young men of earlier generations that we may enjoy the freedoms we do today. That is as valid now as it ever was. By the time of the Armistice in 1918 there could not have been a family untouched by the dreadful conflict (though my own seems to have been one such). We may also reflect upon the fact that our own generation has not been called upon to make such a sacrifice.

My own late parents lived through the Second World War and my father fought in it as a member of the Royal Air Force. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that their lives were for ever dominated by what happened in those years and by extension my own upbringing as well.

All of our lives have been touched in some way by the great conflicts of the 20th century. It is this that we need to remember along with the great sacrifice of previous generations.

The line between this remembrance and the 'glorification of war' has become increasingly blurred in recent years, especially with the rise of the 'heroes industry' and I am concerned about this as it detracts from what Remembrance Sunday should represent. The ceramic poppies at the Tower of London I find to be a sickly sentimentalising of the tragedy and the horrors of war.

I understand what you write here and indeed identify with most of it but whilst "remembering" is indeed not enough, "reflecting upon" is OK only if and to the extent that such reflection gives rise to strong and unassailable anti-war sentiments. The ceramic poppies might indeed be "sickly sentimentalising", but what is far more sickening that sickly is the all too widespread tacit acceptance that war is one of those things up with which we all have still to put, however regrettably; until and unless so passive and compliant a response to wars from before WWI up to the present day disappears into history forever, most people will have learned nothing from any of those conflicts large and small, so all those who "gave their lives" in them (what arrant nonsense! - no one "gave" his/her life, for his/her country or anything else, in any of these conflicts!) did so in vain.

[ahinton]

Looks like even ahinton can't explain what he posted, Flosshilde, so I await your revelation with no little interest!

Not "everyone" (see below) requires or is seeking such an explanation, PGT; Flosshilde, in noting the fact of your having been flummoxed, points out that others are not...

[ahinton]

I mean EVERYONE ... this is where dictionaries come in very handy but a complete waste of time suggesting such an obvious solution here, I think!

Well, thank you for clarifying this. What then do you feel about the term including all those who would take an active stand against all war and be prepared to underwrite it by refusing to participate in any war? No "dictionaries" are needed in order to provide an honest answer here, methinks...

[P. G. Tipps]

Well, thank you for clarifying this. What then do you feel about the term including all those who would take an active stand against all war and be prepared to underwrite it by refusing to participate in any war? No "dictionaries" are needed in order to provide an honest answer here, methinks...

Most Christians have absolutely no problem with sincere 'conscientious objection'.

What makes you think otherwise?

Here is the authoritative Catholic stance, for example ...

So there you have both an honest and clearly accurate answer.

I can do little else!

http://paxchristiusa1.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/conobjandcathteach.pdf

[P. G. Tipps]

Not "everyone" (see below) requires or is seeking such an explanation, PGT; Flosshilde, in noting the fact of your having been flummoxed, points out that others are not...

Now that I've answered your question any chance of you (or Flosshilde) answering my own ... ?

[Flosshilde]

Christian ministers are supposed to be there

Why are they in the military at all?

[Flosshilde]

answering my own ... ?

Which was? Your posts have had such a plethora of question marks that it seems that you understand nothing.

[visualnickmos]

Well that's very true, and it's what constitutes a 'just war' or not. WWII would certainly come into the 'just war' category with most people, I suspect, though there will have have been some cruel and unjust things carried out by the Western Allies in the course of it ... the Dresden mass-bombing by the British and the the dropping of the atom-bomb on Japanese cities by the Americans might well come into that category? So it's unlikely that any war can be considered wholly just though the alternative of surrendering to the Axis Powers would have been unthinkable.

However I wasn't so much thinking of that but the fact that, for the dead and those they leave behind, it doesn't really matter what sort of military war was fought ... the end result (death, destruction and associated misery) is always the same?

Totally agree with that. However; I suppose every war is "just" to one side, faction, or whatever.... A very thorny question, actually.

As a possible example, I would have thought the British army's acts of violence in attempting to extinguish the flame of independence in Ireland, during that country's struggle to break from Britain, nearly a hundred years ago, were considered "just" at the time by the British government and the 'establishment' classes.

But, as you say - the suffering and loss is always the same for the victims of all war. That is the pity of the hell of war.

[P. G. Tipps]

Thanks for the sensible response, visualnickmos, and I agree that things are not always morally 'clear-cut', by any means. <ok>

[ahinton]

Most Christians have absolutely no problem with sincere 'conscientious objection'.

What makes you think otherwise?

I hadn't say that I did think otherwise; I asked you a question and you answered it, for which thanks; it's just a pity that, to date, the conscientious objector sector has yet to become a majority and, until and unless it does so, there will continue to be human carnage and wastage.

[ahinton]

Now that I've answered your question any chance of you (or Flosshilde) answering my own ... ?

Please do us a favour and remind us of what it was.

[Flosshilde]

I could think of a much more welcome favour.