The Remembrance Day thread

[P. G. Tipps]

It's called a sense of humour, Mr Tipps.

Ho Ho Ho ... that's usually MrGongGong's final "get out" so try and show some originality, please!

Yes, they always do that don't they. But how many of them speak out against war in all its forms?

Which form of deathly war do you consider different from any other, then ... ?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Which form of deathly war do you consider different from any other, then ... ?

This is an interesting topic. Many would argue that some wars had no real purpose, and no positive outcome, e.g. WW1. On the other hand WW2 might be considered to have been "necessary".

It's a complex topic, but with recent incursions by NATO into other people's conflicts, it's by no means irrelevant.

[P. G. Tipps]

This is an interesting topic. Many would argue that some wars had no real purpose, and no positive outcome, e.g. WW1. On the other hand WW2 might be considered to have been "necessary".

It's a complex topic, but with recent incursions by NATO into other people's conflicts, it's by no means irrelevant.

Well that's very true, and it's what constitutes a 'just war' or not. WWII would certainly come into the 'just war' category with most people, I suspect, though there will have have been some cruel and unjust things carried out by the Western Allies in the course of it ... the Dresden mass-bombing by the British and the the dropping of the atom-bomb on Japanese cities by the Americans might well come into that category? So it's unlikely that any war can be considered wholly just though the alternative of surrendering to the Axis Powers would have been unthinkable.

However I wasn't so much thinking of that but the fact that, for the dead and those they leave behind, it doesn't really matter what sort of military war was fought ... the end result (death, destruction and associated misery) is always the same?

[amateur51]

Well that's very true, and it's what constitutes a 'just war' or not. WWII would certainly come into the 'just war' category with most people, I suspect, though there will have have been some cruel and unjust things carried out by the Western Allies in the course of it ... the Dresden mass-bombing by the British and the the dropping of the atom-bomb on Japanese cities by the Americans might well come into that category? So it's unlikely that any war can be considered wholly just though the alternative of surrendering to the Axis Powers would have been unthinkable.

However I wasn't so much thinking of that but the fact that, for the dead and those they leave behind, it doesn't really matter what sort of military war was fought ... the end result (death, destruction and associated misery) is always the same?

But why this need to 'remember' people who died 100 years ago and whom we've never met?

Apparently most people can't remember if they bought PPI, after all.Hence all the ads.

[ahinton]

But why this need to 'remember' people who died 100 years ago and whom we've never met?

Apparently most people can't remember if they bought PPI, after all.Hence all the ads.

Quite. The principle of remembrance remains vaild, in my view but, as you say, we cannot remember the dead of WWI because thet're so far removed from us in years that we didn't know any of them, so what needs to be "remembered" is not the individuals who lost their livs in WWI but the situation that brought WWI about and the factors that failed to discourage it from being waged in the first place; the "remembrance" should be in the form of a homily and a warning notice to us all about the consequnces of what happened then in order to ensure as far as possible that nothing lke it ever happens again.

[ahinton]

Indeed it has, that is quite clear irrespective of one's news-media preferences. But then so do the Great British Bake-Off and Big Brother. The Remembrance Sunday events tap into genuine emotions. And that is one reason for objecting to them - there's a manipulative undertone about war being heroic. Personally I would prefer some kind of commemoration which would put the emphasis on learning something from these man-made catastrophes and concluding "... and that is why nothing like this should ever be allowed to happen again." But of course our rulers are busy making it happen again left right and centre, not just by fighting wars although there's plenty of that, but also supplying arms to combatants and so on.

Aye, there's the rub; if such remembrance events concentrated exclusively on that, all sense of contentiousness would evaporate and such events could be of inestimable value.

[ahinton]

Not in the First World War it wasn't. I don't believe it was at all an easy option to refuse military service.

You bet it wasn't! The risk of being vilified and worse for overtly having acted as a CO was overbearingly heavy in those days and it would have taken immense - indeed, "heroic" - courage to make and see through such a decision.

[ahinton]

Quote Originally Posted by P. G. Tipps View Post
The local CofE vicar said some prayers for peace

Yes, they always do that don't they. But how many of them speak out against war in all its forms?

I have no idea how many because, as a non-Christian, I very rarely attend Christian Church services so I have little evidence to hand on this; however, I have on two occasions attended services at Hereford Cathedral (albeit not "Remembrance Sunday" ones) in which its Dean has taken the opportunity to do just that, quite forcefully and in no uncertain terms - and I do applaud him for that. As an outsider, I have no desire or intent to tread on Christian toes here but I cannot help but ask what possible point there can be in an officer of a Christian Church offering up prayers for peace without at the same time addressing the very need to do so in the first place?

[P. G. Tipps]

...I cannot help but ask what possible point there can be in an officer of a Christian Church offering up prayers for peace without at the same time addressing the very need to do so in the first place?

Eh... ?

[Flosshilde]

what possible point there can be in an officer of a Christian Church offering up prayers for peace without at the same time addressing the very need to do so in the first place?

A point that is perfectly clear to me, even if Tipps is flumoxed by it.

I would also add to Ahinton's comment that it is rather hypocritical of officers of Christian churches praying for peace when they have colleagues dressed in military uniforms offering prayers for success in battle.

[Flosshilde]

I don't believe it was at all an easy option to refuse military service.

Not particularly easy more recently in the CCF, that exercise in the militarisation of school.

[Ferretfancy]

It has been pointed out that one of the main participants of the poppy ceremony at the Tower was a young cadet in battle fatigues. There always has to be a potential enemy, doesn't there? The commemoration has only been going for a couple of weeks, and it's almost impossible to avoid it in the media. TV and press have another four years to produce an even greater flow of nostalgia, because in essence that's what it is.

When the participants in both wars returned home,like my father from WW1 and my brother from WW11, they looked to the future, wanting to see real change. They were both disappointed. Meanwhile the politicians demand more and more control over us all while the military go on polishing their buttons.

[P. G. Tipps]

A point that is perfectly clear to me, even if Tipps is flumoxed by it.

I would also add to Ahinton's comment that it is rather hypocritical of officers of Christian churches praying for peace when they have colleagues dressed in military uniforms offering prayers for success in battle.

a) Explain it to Old Thicko, then ...

b) What do you expect military chaplains to do when war is a fait accompl and many scared young men are faced with such terrible danger ... ?

To offer up prayers for their defeat in battle, and that they all end up dead or have their limbs blown off?

Christian ministers are supposed to be there for everyone whatever situation they find themselves in.

[Petrushka]

But why this need to 'remember' people who died 100 years ago and whom we've never met?.

What we are remembering or, better still, reflecting upon is the sacrifice that was made by the young men of earlier generations that we may enjoy the freedoms we do today. That is as valid now as it ever was. By the time of the Armistice in 1918 there could not have been a family untouched by the dreadful conflict (though my own seems to have been one such). We may also reflect upon the fact that our own generation has not been called upon to make such a sacrifice.

My own late parents lived through the Second World War and my father fought in it as a member of the Royal Air Force. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that their lives were for ever dominated by what happened in those years and by extension my own upbringing as well.

All of our lives have been touched in some way by the great conflicts of the 20th century. It is this that we need to remember along with the great sacrifice of previous generations.

The line between this remembrance and the 'glorification of war' has become increasingly blurred in recent years, especially with the rise of the 'heroes industry' and I am concerned about this as it detracts from what Remembrance Sunday should represent. The ceramic poppies at the Tower of London I find to be a sickly sentimentalising of the tragedy and the horrors of war.

[ahinton]

A point that is perfectly clear to me, even if Tipps is flumoxed by it.

I would also add to Ahinton's comment that it is rather hypocritical of officers of Christian churches praying for peace when they have colleagues dressed in military uniforms offering prayers for success in battle.

Too right it is!