The Remembrance Day thread

[Beef Oven!]

Not in the First World War it wasn't. I don't believe it was at all an easy option to refuse military service.

Being hard does not mean it's heroic. Holding a pint of beer when sneezing is hard, but it's not heroic. And as I said, I admire the people who were prepared to go to prison for their beliefs (not to escape death).

[Beef Oven!]

Whether or not it is popular is not the only issue. I do think we should remember the dead (of all nationalities) but there remain concerns of an underlining glorification of war enmeshed in the hype.

I agree with you that we should remember the dead of all nations. But I'm not seeing this 'underlining glorification of war'. And why do you say 'hype'? It's all a bit vague.

[amateur51]

Well, I don't know if it's true either, but you may be underestimating how popular this whole things is. I am surprised about the number of young people who are interested in it, especially the enamel poppy thing at the tower.

Yesterday I dropped into a boxing gym to see a friend. While I was there I went to get a bottle of water from the fridge and a young lad (20?) took the last one just before me. But, he insisted that I should have it, which I thought was very nice of him. Anyway, he started talking to a white kid and a black kid (he's mixed raced) and I can't believe what they were saying. They were trying to get to see the poppies before they were taken down. I said I'd thought they'd gone already. They put me right and said they were still there and wanted to buy some, "but you're only allowed one per person". £20 each they said. It was surreal. Three racially diverse youngsters in a boxing gym, wanting to buy enamel poppies saying that everyone who's been said it's really emotional and not to be missed.

You may question the sociological and psychological underpinnings of all this, but this remembrance and poppy phenomenon has really captured the imagination, and they are oblivious to all the stuff Guardian readers (for example) are concerned about. funny, heart-warming and surreal, I thought.

Missed opportunity I feel. You could have got a good discussion going about WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, Falklands, Cyprus, Gulf War I, Gulf War II etc etc , their causes and outcomes and how it's rather dubious to permit an element of celebration of the event to come into it while still commemorating the tragedy and sacrifice of all wars. After all, by the sound of them they might well be amongst the first to volunteeer should another war break out.

As a firm believer in entrepreneurial capitalism, you'll understand the urge/need of these young men to conform and fit in through their purchases of the poppies.

[Beef Oven!]

And if people who object to the jingoism of Remembrance Sunday are in such a tiny minority I wonder why there are proportionately so many of them on this forum today - unless it's as PG Tipps says and the shared interest in certain musics means that there's a "higher level of intelligence" among members.

You must take into account the general profile of the people that come into this room to ventilate, one. And then think about who the noisey ones are going to be, two.

There's an awful lot of nose and ear hair, in here.

[Richard Barrett]

this remembrance and poppy phenomenon has really captured the imagination

Indeed it has, that is quite clear irrespective of one's news-media preferences. But then so do the Great British Bake-Off and Big Brother. The Remembrance Sunday events tap into genuine emotions. And that is one reason for objecting to them - there's a manipulative undertone about war being heroic. Personally I would prefer some kind of commemoration which would put the emphasis on learning something from these man-made catastrophes and concluding "... and that is why nothing like this should ever be allowed to happen again." But of course our rulers are busy making it happen again left right and centre, not just by fighting wars although there's plenty of that, but also supplying arms to combatants and so on.

[Beef Oven!]

I know that anything is open to question but, in saying that "contentious" is not a word that would occur to me, I was certainly not denying that some will have reason to see it that way; I gave six reasons (and I'm sure that there are more) why "Remembrance Sunday" should not be taken for granted as though it's some kind of "British tradition". You used the word "popular", which I have to admit I found strange in the circumstances, suggestive as it could be of "celebration", "festivity" and the like.

Ok, you didn't directly contradict RB, relax. But you can't have it both ways. From what you posted, you do not agree that Remembrance Sunday is contentious, but you don't rule out that others might.

Popular? Yes. Maybe it feels a bit different where you live. Fair enough.

Leaving that aside, the fact that soldiers (and other armed forces personnel) "fought bravely and lost their lives" doesn't make them "heroes", however "brave" they may well have been; they were coerced into doing it as though not to do it would be immoral and unpatriotic. Given that Britain still involves itself in wars despite having had so very many of its citizens lose their lives fighting them, "Remembrance Sunday" - which should only be on a Sunday when 11 November falls on one - ought to be an opportunity for those participating in that commemoration to hold their heads in shame for all of that wastage of humanity, which is rather difficult to do without hypocrisy when it's still going on as it is today.

I don't think that I've ever used the term 'heroes'. RB et al have, coming from the other side. But I haven't.

[Richard Barrett]

There's an awful lot of nose and ear hair, in here.

What does that mean?

[amateur51]

What does that mean?

it's a shame; it was all going so well

Now that a sensible, reasoned discussion is being had, could we please avoid needless posts like this? - it only serves to distract.

[Beef Oven!]

What does that mean?

Added on at the end of my post (which you edited) as a euphemistic way of saying that we may not be a very representative group. We are older, left-field and a bit 'anoraky'.

So your question about 'why are so many in here' against 'Remembrance Day', may not be instructive.

[P. G. Tipps]

And if people who object to the jingoism of Remembrance Sunday are in such a tiny minority I wonder why there are proportionately so many of them on this forum today - unless it's as PG Tipps says and the shared interest in certain musics means that there's a "higher level of intelligence" among members.

Well you, yourself, conceded the 'tiny minority' case now you appear to be desperately scrambling to refute it!

I attended my local Remembrance Service on Sunday. There was no 'jingoism', in fact quite the opposite.

The local CofE vicar said some prayers for peace (anathema to some stridently secular 'peace-loving' members, I know), there was a scout band and a bugle call and that was it. It was extremely well-attended with people from all walks of life paying their respects to the war dead. It was an extremely simple and moving event.

To suggest that is 'jingoistic' might suggest that your self-proclaimed superior knowledge and intelligence is not quite what you crack it up to be?

[Richard Barrett]

So your question about 'why are so many in here' against 'Remembrance Day', may not be instructive.

It was meant to be mildly amusing actually <eyeroll>... especially the bit about nonrepresentativeness being the result of "a higher level of intelligence". Anyway my nasal and aural hairs are kept nicely trimmed and I haven't worn an anorak since primary school.

[Richard Barrett]

Well you, yourself, conceded the 'tiny minority' case now you appear to be desperately scrambling to refute it!

It's called a sense of humour, Mr Tipps.

The local CofE vicar said some prayers for peace

Yes, they always do that don't they. But how many of them speak out against war in all its forms?

[Beef Oven!]

It was meant to be mildly amusing actually <eyeroll>... especially the bit about nonrepresentativeness being the result of "a higher level of intelligence". Anyway my nasal and aural hairs are kept nicely trimmed and I haven't worn an anorak since primary school.

Ok, I did not realise that it was meant as humour. And I'm glad that you take care of your appearance.

[amateur51]

Well you, yourself, conceded the 'tiny minority' case now you appear to be desperately scrambling to refute it!

I attended my local Remembrance Service on Sunday. There was no 'jingoism', in fact quite the opposite.

The local CofE vicar said some prayers for peace (anathema to some stridently secular 'peace-loving' members, I know), there was a scout band and a bugle call and that was it. It was extremely well-attended with people from all walks of life paying their respects to the war dead. It was an extremely simple and moving event.

To suggest that is 'jingoistic' might suggest that your self-proclaimed superior knowledge and intelligence is not quite what you crack it up to be?

Did you watch the Cenotaph service with its swinging arms, marching feet, medals, military bands playing 'trombone hits of the First World War' as my friend Veronica used to call them?

Your service sounded grand, scotty.

[amateur51]

It was meant to be mildly amusing actually <eyeroll>... especially the bit about nonrepresentativeness being the result of "a higher level of intelligence". Anyway my nasal and aural hairs are kept nicely trimmed and I haven't worn an anorak since primary school.

As I am certain the poster's follicles are, trimmed, primped and above all shaved :winkydinkydoo: