NHS is very good value

[Beef Oven!]

Hmm, plenty of food for thought. But what a shockingly bad study. I'd be too embarrassed to hand it in, if I'd written it as an undergraduate.

Shame they didn't opt for spend per capita, or at least used per capita-GDP.

From the variables it's impossible to know much about value, although given that in the UK we appear to be living longer than other nations, it must be for some reason other than the NHS because it appears to be killing more of us than the other countries' hospitals do!!

I didn't follow the link to find out how NZ could teach us to be fatter, but survive a bit longer in hospital.

[teamsaint]

Hmm, plenty of food for thought. But what a shockingly bad study. I'd be too embarrassed to hand it in, if I'd written it as an undergraduate.

Shame they didn't opt for spend per capita, or at least used per capita-GDP.

From the variables it's impossible to know much about value, although given that in the UK we appear to be living longer than other nations, it must be for some reason other than the NHS because it appears to be killing more of us than the other countries' hospitals do!!

I didn't follow the link to find out how NZ could teach us to be fatter, but survive a bit longer in hospital.

Beefy, I am sure that you would have interesting thoughts about rising NHS admin costs (since the internal market was introduced), and the sky high admin costs of the American model, in comparison to other countries.

[P. G. Tipps]

You certainly HAVE made accusations about the Guardian and, its readers. ( I don't buy or read the Guardian).

I actually don't notice accusations about people slavishly following the telegraph line on here. Good articles in the telegraph, ( which do happen from time to time) get due credit in my view.

Raw political sensibilities ? that is the funniest thing I have read all year. I would LOVE to see you explain that !! Gave up on "politics" after the Iraq war protests showed what our governments really thought of us.

Anyway, off you go..but before you do go, , thoughts on the telegraph article I linked ?

Have I? Maybe you can kindly demonstrate exactly where I've made 'accusations against the Guardian and its readers'. Please don't respond with 'I can't be bothered' or 'I'm much too busy' because if you do the obvious conclusions will be drawn.

What is true that on one or two occasions (hardly 'relentlessly') I have poked a bit of fun at some members' propensity to quote from the august organ as if it were some sort of authoritative and decisive 'Imprimatur'! I have also said I no longer buy newspapers but occasionally pick up a free Daily Mail in Waitrose 'for a laugh'. That doesn't strike me as one who is naturally nasty to the Guardian and its readers though I might well opine that one is just as liable to stumble across 'truth economy' in that newspaper as any other!

As for your Telegraph link, yes I'd seen that some time ago. It may well be true and I must say it is refreshing to see a link here from that newspaper. Again I've never claimed that it wasn't true!

My own Guardian link was in response to S_A who seemed to want us all to believe (however anecdotally) that the NHS doesn't get bulk-buy discounts from suppliers. Well it appears that it does and at least one hospital had been re-selling bulk-discounted goods in order to make a profit!

You may not have liked what you read in that article but that is no reason for you to suddenly hurl wholly unfounded accusations and silly insults at the messenger. That seemed to indicate clear 'raw political sensibilities' to the messenger at the very least!

[teamsaint]

calling the Guardian "the Forum bible is good enough for me" to be seen as having a go at the Guardian and its readers. perhaps you haven't done that as often as I think, in which case I would apologise for suggesting that you have. I really cac't be bothered to go back and check.

as for the rest, lets just discuss the effectiveness , cost and health wise, of the NHS, instead og made up stuff about" raw political sensibilities" whatever they are.

[Beef Oven!]

calling the Guardian "the Forum bible is good enough for me" to be seen as having a go at the Guardian and its readers. perhaps you haven't done that as often as I think, in which case I would apologise for suggesting that you have. I really cac't be bothered to go back and check.

as for the rest, lets just discuss the effectiveness , cost and health wise, of the NHS, instead og made up stuff about" raw political sensibilities" whatever they are.

But everyone knows that Guardian readers are complete wankers.

Back to the topic, I agree that we should be discussing the value for money, effectiveness etc of health services.

[Beef Oven!]

Beefy, I am sure that you would have interesting thoughts about rising NHS admin costs (since the internal market was introduced), and the sky high admin costs of the American model, in comparison to other countries.

I certainly have views on these things. Whether anyone would find them interesting, is another matter. NHS England can talk about £108 billion, or whatever they think it takes, but it's way too much. We get poor service and poor value for money. Let Amazon, John Lewis Partnership whoever manage the business, and let the doctors, doctor. We should even utilise some of the nurses (you know, the ones who have a real patient-focus).

[amateur51]

But everyone knows that Guardian readers are complete wankers.

But not all wankers are Guardian readers, evidently.

[MrGongGong]

. We get poor service and poor value for money.

I guess you have never been seriously ill then ?
Some people DO get this
BUT others get wonderful "service" and great value
saved my life so three cheers for Mr Dahaar

[Beef Oven!]

I guess you have never been seriously ill then ?
Some people DO get this
BUT others get wonderful "service" and great value
saved my life so three cheers for Mr Dahaar

Let's avoid anecdotes.

[MrGongGong]

Let's avoid anecdotes.

And your comment was based on what ?
YOU said "we get poor service" etc etc

I don't
I haven't
I am part of We


SO go and listen to the death metal i've sent you and stop being an arse

[MrGongGong]

So, you obviously don't understand the 'let doctors do the doctoring' bit.

It's a bit hard to comment with out an "anecdote", you know, the one where I've seen doctors do "doctoring"
My GP seems to spend a lot of time doing this
So does the consultant I see

But I guess that doesn't count?

[Beef Oven!]

I guess you have never been seriously ill then ?
Some people DO get this
BUT others get wonderful "service" and great value
saved my life so three cheers for Mr Dahaar

So, you obviously don't understand the 'let doctors do the doctoring' bit. Would be even better if Mr Dahaar had the benefit decent support services. Ask him what he thinks next time you see him.

[teamsaint]

If we had, for instance, much more efficient systems of administration,msuch as those pertaining before the internal market, many more people could get the excellent service that MRGG got, and many fewer the shoddy or non existent treatment that I have seen and experienced, in life threatening situations .Its not a hard thing to figure out.

[MrGongGong]

So, you obviously don't understand the 'let doctors do the doctoring' bit. Would be even better if Mr Dahaar had the benefit decent support services. Ask him what he thinks next time you see him.

My (limited to my own life I know, we can't all be omnipresent entities like your good self) experience is that the most skilled folk in medicine, the ones who don't wear fancy dress and are called Mr, tend to do nothing but "doctoring".
It's not prefect but one shouldn't dismiss the things that work.

What I DO object to is the "received wisdom" approach that says things like "We get poor service" to which everyone goes "ooooo yes, i'd like a back rub while your at it".

[teamsaint]

It isnt received wisdom if you have experienced it, although to somebody else it is just an anecdote.

Apparently dosctors ARE spending less time doctoring....

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/home/finance-and-practice-life-news/80-of-gps-spend-more-time-inputting-information-from-secondary-care/20006843.article#.VFlJdoiQGrU