"High Speed" trains

[teamsaint]

Well, with the Liverpool-Scarborough and Liverpool-Newcastle trains running with such frequency, changing at Manchester (with a 15 minute service to Leeds and a good service to Sheffield) shouldn't really be an issue.

I had a quick look.

There are hourly direct trains from Liverpool to leeds, Sheffield (78 miles by road)and Newcastle, taking 1 H 30, 1 H 40, and just over 3 hours.
Liverpool to Bradford is a painful 2 hours with a change.

as a comparison, there is a half hourly service paddington to Cardiff, which takes just over 2 hours, and is about 30 miles less than liverpool to Newcastle.
Bournemouth to london fast service is 1 hour 50, once an hour, for the 105 mile trip.

Its not a brilliant service out of Liverpool,, but looks comparable with other mainline routes.

I wonder if there are incremental changes that could be made to the infrastructure or service, and how close to capacity the Liverpool to Yorkshire routes are.

[Dave2002]

Instead BR closed the electrified Manchester-Sheffield railway.

I didn't realise that there ever had been an electrified line from Manchester to Sheffield, or indeed to Sheffield from anywhere else. Which line was that?

[Dave2002]

Bournemouth to london fast service is 1 hour 50, once an hour, for the 105 mile trip.

That seems pretty pathetic. London to Stafford or London to Warrington can be done in 1 hr 15 or 1 hr 45 respectively.

One other factor to discuss - over 90% of journeys are made by road - though I don't know what the profiles are for longer (>20 mile) journeys. A lot of journeys are short - trips to schools, to shope, and some work commuting.

Also, much longer distance journeys - say over 300 miles, may be more appropriate for air transport - though I don't think air really comes into its own below 400 miles, and I'm not very keen on flying anyway.

[Flosshilde]

That seems pretty pathetic. London to Stafford or London to Warrington can be done in 1 hr 15 or 1 hr 45 respectively.
...

Also, much longer distance journeys - say over 300 miles, may be more appropriate for air transport - though I don't think air really comes into its own below 400 miles, and I'm not very keen on flying anyway.

Glasgow to London takes 4 - 4.5 hours. This compares very favourably with air, which takes about the same time if you calculate it city centre to city centre. The costs are also comparable if you book in advance, & again calculating it from city centre to city centre.

[Dave2002]

Glasgow to London takes 4 - 4.5 hours. This compares very favourably with air, which takes about the same time if you calculate it city centre to city centre. The costs are also comparable if you book in advance, & again calculating it from city centre to city centre.

Air travel usually does take rather longer than simply the flying time, but it probably starts to gain over trains for journeys over 500 miles, and does also depend on the local transport requirements at each end. There aren't too many journeys in the UK like that, but there are some.

Generally I'd prefer to sit on a train, though one recent long distance journey was on a train which became damaged, thus extending an already long journey by several more hours as the train was taken out of service.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I didn't realise that there ever had been an electrified line from Manchester to Sheffield, or indeed to Sheffield from anywhere else. Which line was that?

The Woodhead route. They actually dug another Woodhead Tunnel - over 3 miles of it, parallel to the old ones, and the electrified route was opened in 1954. There have been many pleas for its reopening, but without much hope of success. The big problem was that trains ran into Sheffield Victoria, rather than the bigger Sheffield Midland.

[Flosshilde]

Generally I'd prefer to sit on a train, though one recent long distance journey was on a train which became damaged, thus extending an already long journey by several more hours as the train was taken out of service.

Which does happen to flights, if the plane is delayed because of weather, mechanical problems etc. I was once on a flight that was delayed by a day!

[amateur51]

Glasgow to London takes 4 - 4.5 hours. This compares very favourably with air, which takes about the same time if you calculate it city centre to city centre. The costs are also comparable if you book in advance, & again calculating it from city centre to city centre.

The scenery is better appreciated by train too, a wonderful journey

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's strange that the anti-HS brigade has focussed upon the environmental impact of two 4 ft. 8.5 inch tracks passing near their homes, making far more fuss that they did when a 6 lane + 2 hard shoulders + central reservation + much more (and constant) noise and pollution (gasp) motorway passed through Oxfordshire, etc.

[Dave2002]

It's strange that the anti-HS brigade has focussed upon the environmental impact of two 4 ft. 8.5 inch tracks passing near their homes, making far more fuss that they did when a 6 lane + 2 hard shoulders + central reservation + much more (and constant) noise and pollution (gasp) motorway passed through Oxfordshire, etc.

Some of the antis will be anti whatever, but I think there are many who just think it's not a very high priority, and the same money could be spent on other things, or in different parts of the country.

Transport infrastructure really should be examined much more carefully. Who are doing the journeys, why, what for, and are they all important?
There'll probably 1001 different answers.

[Flosshilde]

Some of the antis will be anti whatever, but I think there are many who just think it's not a very high priority, and the same money could be spent on other things, or in different parts of the country.

or not at all.

Who are doing the journeys, why, what for, and are they all important?

The man promoting it, and in charge of HS2, Sir David Higgins, said that "If you look at the two huge cities - Leeds and Manchester - less than half a percent of the people in each city travel to the other city to work. So in this competitive world access to skilled people is crucial for cities to compete and a good, reliable, fast rail service will improve that."
So basically the answer to 'who is doing the journey' is, more or less, no-one. But he thinks people should be, so he's prepared to spend a lot of money to help them.

[teamsaint]

or not at all.



The man promoting it, and in charge of HS2, Sir David Higgins, said that "If you look at the two huge cities - Leeds and Manchester - less than half a percent of the people in each city travel to the other city to work. So in this competitive world access to skilled people is crucial for cities to compete and a good, reliable, fast rail service will improve that."
So basically the answer to 'who is doing the journey' is, more or less, no-one. But he thinks people should be, so he's prepared to spend a lot of money to help them.

I will start paying just the slightest bit of attention to the pro HS2 (and maybe 3) lobby when I see some statistics that look clear and honest about current use of the WCML.

Like, how close it really is to capacity, where journeys are made to and from, what proportion are between the proposed new hubs, and so on.

Until then, it is all spin, IMO.

Incidentally, currently there are approx 4 trains an hour, and it takes about 50 mins for a 45 mile journey from Leeds to Manchester.

Plenty of folk would LOVE that kind of service to their nearest city, and if that journey stops anybody doing business, then it probably isn't worth doing.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Incidentally, currently there are approx 4 trains an hour, and it takes about 50 mins for a 45 mile journey from Leeds to Manchester.

It's even better than that: four from Manchester Piccadilly and one from Victoria.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/mediafile/1531/tt_north_18may-13dec2014_web.pdf

[amateur51]

It's even better than that: four from Manchester Piccadilly and one from Victoria.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/mediafile...ec2014_web.pdf

So, easily commutable.

[P. G. Tipps]

Currently the trains between Manchester and Leeds are often slow and over-crowded. It does make sense to link the four big cities in the North (of England) with a high-speed service.

Of course it has to be affordable for passengers to commute between these cities. If the proposed high-speed routes have fares beyond the reach of ordinary travellers then the Government may as well not bother and spend the money on something more widely beneficial, like the NHS.