"High Speed" trains

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18025

    "High Speed" trains

    Now we have discussion of a so called "HS3" proposal for the north of England - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29779134

    OK - there are a few problems with the terrain - a few small hills in some parts, but one feature of the TGV trains in France is that they are more or less unaffected by gradients (allegedly) as they have so much power that the speed doesn't reduce significantly by going up and down hills. Perhaps British trains would not have so much reserve power to make that possible.

    As usual the UK is miserably slow to pick up any ideas like this, and the idea that a "high speed" service in the north would only achieve the same sort of speeds that the 125 mph HS 125 trains on other lines which have been operating since the 1980s.

    Why can't we be aspirational, and try for Liverpool to Hull in 1 hour (that would be around 130 mph average), with Liverpool to Leeds in 40 minutes (about 120 mph average), and also try to find ways (infrastructure!) to link in Sheffield and York into a high speed northern network?

    I don't feel the "HS3" proposal is anything like aspirational enough, and is perhaps a sop to some of the electorate before an election.
    However, it's possible that I am being unduly harsh, as the terrain might make really high speed operation difficult - though without an aspirational plan to achieve that we'll never find out. One line which I am now beginning to know quite well, from Glasgow or Edinburgh to Inverness does go through difficult terrain, and with a distance of around 160 miles it might be difficult to reduce journey times to (say) 2 hours, giving an average speed of 80 mph. Current journey times along these routes are over 3 hours - about 50 mph average. I don't think the area round Manchester/Sheffield/Leeds is as challenging though, and operation at higher average speeds might be possible, and definitely worth investigating.

    Apart from speed, capacity is an issue on northern lines, and some recent suggestions to improve the rolling stock on the northern lines are to be welcomed. It's hardly surprising that many journeys are done by road once one has experienced some of the capacity and service issues on rail networks, though for longer journeys rail travel is usually far less stressful. People will not divert from roads to rail if the infrastructure, connectivity, capacity and service levels are not significantly improved. However, driving conditions on the UK's roads continue to worsen as more and more people are using the roads, so that travel by car is often unreliable, stressful, and sometimes takes far longer than travelling by train - for example for journeys of 150 miles and over.
  • ahinton
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 16123

    #2
    The very name of "HS" 2/3/4/5 is a joke; what's proposed are largely medium speed trains and the cost of the entire project including Scotland (which has had little said about it to date) would be more likely to bankrupt the nation than to boost its economy. What's been built already has long been largely an anachronism and is simply incompatible with true highspeed travel; given that this would mean the need to start again from scratch, I don't think that any of it has a chance at all. The aspiration to create a northern super-city linking not only Manchester and Liverpool with Leeds, Sheffield and York but also absorbing all the other northern conurbations is hardly likely to be met merely through carving up land either sinde of the Pennines in the hope of providing much faster, more frequent and more capacitous train services alone; it would also mean that the central southern and south west of England's broadly poor relation status would worsen considerably (and by that area I mean pretty much everywhere in England south or west of the M4 corridor that's more than around 60 miles from London apart from just a handful of relatively well off places.

    I agree with your last paragraph although, at least for passenger journeys in excess of, say, 200 miles within UK where speed is of the essence, flight seems to be the obvious choice and Britain does at least have some domestic infrastructure (unlike its far larger southern neighbour); for a vast expansion of freight movement, however, neither air nor rail will do (too much extra freight moving by rail will inevitably slow down pssenger journey times) and so we'd be left with the obligation to develop the motorway network.

    Comment

    • Dave2002
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 18025

      #3
      It is quite hard to achieve very high speeds and in some ways this is not always necessary, nor completely desirable. Short distance travel does not work particularly well, because of the time taken to accelerate the train, and slow it down at the destination. This can be a problem also if lines have stations to stop at en route. Things do get worse if there are other constraints, such as curves in the route.

      As I recall, the fastest trains I have been on are Eurostar and TGVs. In the early days of TGVs I travelled from Lyon to Paris a few times, and I think the travel time was about 2 hours. The current schedules suggest typical times of around 2 hours, though the 5.03 am train is scheduled for 1 hour 57 minutes. That really was an average speed around 150 mph. However, the TGV average speeds to further flung cities are usually lower, as speed tends to decrease the further the trains are from Paris. The latest TGVs could be faster than the earlier ones, but the track is probably a limiting factor, as well also as some routing decisions taken by the French engineers. The west coast line actually goes too far to the west, because the designers realised that that way they could serve more cities, with routes into Brittany. The latest Eurostar trains are also capable of high speed, though the average speed is reduced on journeys into the UK because of the Channel Tunnel. Firstly, this does not provide a straight line route to some destinations - Paris/Brussels, and secondly, the speeds through the tunnel will be lower.

      Apart from the internal HS1 lines in the UK, the East Coast line perhaps has the fastest trains, with an achievable maximum speed of about 125 mph. I have actually measured a maximum speed of 125 mph, though there are also stretches on the West Coast ML where trains get up to that speed. The average speed on both the ECML and WCML is lower than the maximum possible speed. A typical fast average speed on the ECML is about 95 mph, with a journey time of around 4 hours 20 minutes. The fastest trains from London to Ashford also get close to an average speed of 95mph with a journey time of 38 minutes, while the average speed on the route to Folkestone is lower, at about 76 mph with a journey time of 55 minutes. That's travelling at least partly over HS1 lines. However, this is still considerably faster than alternative routes over the southern network.

      Speed isn't everything and planners seem to forget this - "conveniently". The proposals for HS2 don't confer major advantages for many people north of London - say within 25 miles of the centre, as to make a journey to Birmingham, or other points further north will require travel into London, probably a cross London transfer. The need to travel in the wrong direction, to change trains, and possibly also to do a transfer to another station within the capital are all counter productive regarding high average speeds. This is a fundamental problem with the hub model for transport - though it does have other advantages.

      Proposals for northern hubs, for example at Crewe, will be subject to similar issues.

      A service which works reliably, is convenient, and comfortable - and has enough capacity and frequent service - may be much more valuable than a high speed service - though I'd personally like to see high speed combined with the other quality factors.

      Comment

      • jean
        Late member
        • Nov 2010
        • 7100

        #4
        Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
        Why can't we be aspirational, and try for Liverpool to Hull in 1 hour (that would be around 130 mph average), with Liverpool to Leeds in 40 minutes (about 120 mph average), and also try to find ways (infrastructure!) to link in Sheffield and York into a high speed northern network?
        That would be good, but

        ...it's possible that I am being unduly harsh, as the terrain might make really high speed operation difficult ...
        I think it might.

        I don't really know enough about the terrain negotiated by the TGV in central France, but in Italy rail routes tend to search out the gaps between Apennines until they get south of Rome where there aren't any gaps, and then everything slows down a lot.

        (I'd be satisfied if I could get over to Yorkshire without always having to change in Manchester and wait there for several hours.)

        .

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        • Eine Alpensinfonie
          Host
          • Nov 2010
          • 20570

          #5
          Originally posted by jean View Post
          (I'd be satisfied if I could get over to Yorkshire without always having to change in Manchester and wait there for several hours.)
          Well, with the Liverpool-Scarborough and Liverpool-Newcastle trains running with such frequency, changing at Manchester (with a 15 minute service to Leeds and a good service to Sheffield) shouldn't really be an issue.

          Comment

          • Flosshilde
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 7988

            #6
            Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
            The need to travel in the wrong direction, to change trains, and possibly also to do a transfer to another station
            That's the reality of train travel already for an awful lot of people who don't live in London :erm:

            Comment

            • Eine Alpensinfonie
              Host
              • Nov 2010
              • 20570

              #7
              But the idea that building HS2/3 will bankrupt the country doesn't hold water. Bombing Iraq, replacing Trident - they can always find money for destruction.

              What really bugs me is that the Trans-Pennine route has to wait until after the north extensions of HS2, which in turn has to wait for the London-Birmingham section, which has to wait until they actually get around to starting.

              Back in the 1960s, after the Euston to Liverpool/Manchester electrification, I remember the derision from users of the East Coast route, who weren't even being considered for electrification. I wrote a letter to British Railways, suggesting connecting Leeds to the electrified network by adding wires to the Stockport-Stalybridge-Leeds route, with some upgrades to the alignments. I'm still waiting for a reply.

              Instead BR closed the electrified Manchester-Sheffield railway.

              Comment

              • Eine Alpensinfonie
                Host
                • Nov 2010
                • 20570

                #8
                Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post
                That's the reality of train travel already for an awful lot of people who don't live in London :erm:
                So true. Commuters in the S.E. whinge constantly about their train services, which are unmatched in the rest of Britain (though Merseyside, Greater Manchester and Tyneside have made progress in recent times)

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                • ahinton
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 16123

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                  But the idea that building HS2/3 will bankrupt the country doesn't hold water. Bombing Iraq, replacing Trident - they can always find money for destruction.
                  Sadly true and I accept that the project might not quite bankrupt the country if it stopped most of the spending on these things on behalf of its "defence" forces.

                  Comment

                  • Flosshilde
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 7988

                    #10
                    Is Leeds considered to be in the North of England (to anyone outside London, that is)?

                    Comment

                    • Eine Alpensinfonie
                      Host
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 20570

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post
                      Is Leeds considered to be in the North of England (to anyone outside London, that is)?
                      Yes.

                      Comment

                      • jean
                        Late member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 7100

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                        Well, with the Liverpool-Scarborough and Liverpool-Newcastle trains running with such frequency, changing at Manchester (with a 15 minute service to Leeds and a good service to Sheffield) shouldn't really be an issue.
                        Not much use coming back after 10pm, when trains from Manchester are only every hour.

                        Comment

                        • jean
                          Late member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 7100

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post
                          Is Leeds considered to be in the North of England (to anyone outside London, that is)?
                          Although I think the North West as commonly understood actually extends further South than does the North East.

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                          • Eine Alpensinfonie
                            Host
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 20570

                            #14
                            Originally posted by jean View Post
                            Although I think the North West as commonly understood actually extends further South than does the North East.
                            That's very true. The NE is basically from Teesside to the Scottish border.The NW is from Cheshire northwards. Yorkshire, in its various administrative areas is just "north".

                            However in the footballing world, the north extends right down to Lowestoft.

                            Comment

                            • vinteuil
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 12846

                              #15
                              I think we need to go back to the treaty of 886 between Alfred the Great of Wessex and Guthrum, one of several Danish kings occupying the Danelaw * . This treaty, concluding several years of war, defined the frontier between the Anglo-Saxon kingdom and Danelaw - "First concerning our boundaries: up on the Thames, and then up on the Lea, and along the Lea unto its source, then straight to Bedford, then up on the Ouse to Watling Street". North of this line was intensely Scandinavian in character. Some therefore define the "north" as equivalent to the old area of the Danelaw, roughly a line from Luton to Chester. Others, of course, think that "The North" begins at Watford. Or indeed Wigmore Street.

                              * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw



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