State of the parties as 2015 General Election looms.

[Richard Barrett]

Well, any sort of 'democracy' without individual nation states would be a logistical impossibility. A form of 'local' administration would have to remain in order to make it workable.

These two sentences contradict one another. There are plenty of forms of democratic local administration which don't require national boundaries, as you must be aware.

[MrGongGong]

Well, any sort of 'democracy' without individual nation states would be a logistical impossibility. A form of 'local' administration would have to remain in order to make it workable.

So without that we would end up with either a right-wing capitalist world dictatorship or a Marxist one.

I suppose there is one other possible alternative which could even be the likeliest one of all ... ie global anarchy!

Of course, this is only what you are capable of imagining.
and

Anarchy is not chaos

[ahinton]

Of course, this is only what you are capable of imagining.
and

Anarchy is not chaos

It can be but does not necessarily have to be; for example, no one that I heard or read suggested that Belgium was in chaos during the time when it had no government and I don't expect anyone to claim that Britain will have espoused chaos purely as a direct consequence of being unable to form a government following the next General Election.

[Richard Barrett]

this is only what you are capable of imagining

This is often a problem though, with the encouragement to think unimaginatively that emanates from both politics and culture at the present time. People need to exercise their imaginations more. It might serve to spread the idea that thinking only in terms of received ideas of what's "workable" or "practical" might be no more fruitful in a sociopolitical context than it obviously is in (for example) writing music.

[ahinton]

This is often a problem though, with the encouragement to think unimaginatively that emanates from both politics and culture at the present time. People need to exercise their imaginations more. It might serve to spread the idea that thinking only in terms of received ideas of what's "workable" or "practical" might be no more fruitful in a sociopolitical context than it obviously is in (for example) writing music.

Whilst I cannot but agree with this in principle, I think that to the disposal of all the national boundaries within EU (something that would surely at the very least presume wholehearted majority support in all 28 EU member states) would require rather more than merely the exercise of imaginations, vital and welcome though that would obviously be.

[ahinton]

So even though we might all agree that co-operation and dialogue between nations is desirable many might baulk at the idea of the abolition of boundaries altogether, as it would almost certainly result in global laissez-faire capitalism/centralised right-wing dictatorship or an even more tyrannical Marxist alternative for all.

Furthermore, with Member Sydney Grew's long advocacy of the latter, combined with compulsory 'homosexualism' for all, that is hardly a prospect likely to have many men and women struggling to resist the promised idyll of a wholly nation-free world?

Mr Grew goes farther than that; I'm not sure that he ever sought to advocate "compulsory homo-sexualism for all" (which is in any case a contradiction in terms!) but he did seek to promote the notion of a one-world state governed by what he calls "incorruptible robots" and, at some time on the way to that one, all sense of seriousness in his avowed desires for (against?) humanity tends to evaporate.

[amateur51]

Mr Grew goes farther than that; I'm not sure that he ever sought to advocate "compulsory homo-sexualism for all" (which is in any case a contradiction in terms!) but he did seek to promote the notion of a one-world state governed by what he calls "incorruptible robots" and, at some time on the way to that one, all sense of seriousness in his avowed desires for (against?) humanity tends to evaporate.

You have to remember that member Grew lives in Australia and member Tipps lives in Cheshire. Neither likely to be a cultural melting pot I'd suggest.

[P. G. Tipps]

These two sentences contradict one another. There are plenty of forms of democratic local administration which don't require national boundaries, as you must be aware.

I put 'local' in inverted commas to indicate that any attempt at a democratic system must have boundaries to make it a practical concept whether that be at local or national level. Even with the latter there is a local element before all the votes (or seats) are totalled.

My point is that even if there were to be, say, a world referendum there would still have to be regional administrations at local or national level to make it work?

[Beef Oven!]

In what way?

The division of the Middle East after the First World War and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire certainly has not acted, and was not intended to act, in the interests of the people who lived there, but in the interests of the then colonial powers. The same could be said for most of Africa, and, closer to home, the Iron Curtain for several decades, and the reestablishment of internal boundaries in Yugoslavia. Overwhelmingly, national boundaries seem to me to be established by ruling classes generally to serve the (economic) interests of the ruling class on the richer and more powerful side of the border, as in Israel/Palestine or USA/Mexico, or as a division of the spoils of war into "spheres of interest", as in my first example. Struggles for self-determination by oppressed peoples, as in Palestine or Kurdistan, are generally a question of trying to break down barriers put in place by others for their own interest.

Try not to confuse national boundaries with their use as political tool.

[Richard Barrett]

there would still have to be regional administrations at local or national level to make it work?

Yes but nobody is denying that. What we are actually talking about here is national boundaries whose crossing involves permissions and restrictions.

I'm surprised, amateur51, that you say Australia isn't a cultural melting-pot - it most certainly is! Maybe not so much in Tasmania where Sydney Grew resides.

[Richard Barrett]

Try not to confuse national boundaries with their use as political tool.

There is no confusion. What other use are they? The ones I mentioned were created as political tools.

[amateur51]

Yes but nobody is denying that. What we are actually talking about here is national boundaries whose crossing involves permissions and restrictions.

I'm surprised, amateur51, that you say Australia isn't a cultural melting-pot - it most certainly is! Maybe not so much in Tasmania where Sydney Grew resides.

Didn't someone once refer to a 'melting pot where nothing actually melts'?

Certainly the governments of Mr Abbott and Mr Howard were very keen to keep out as many 'foreigners' as they could in spite of needing as many people as they could get who were prepared to mine away the nation's mineral wealth for sale to China.

Even Cheshire used to let in a few would-be drinkers from across the border in those days when parts of Wales were still 'dry'

[Beef Oven!]

There is no confusion. What other use are they? The ones I mentioned were created as political tools.

Ban knives because some people use them, or even create them, as weapons? If not confused, then muddled thinking.

[Richard Barrett]

Certainly the governments of Mr Abbott and Mr Howard were very keen to keep out as many 'foreigners' as they could

That's true but I was thinking of the actual people themselves and what Australian society is like on the ground so to speak, although of course the indegenous inhabitants are another story.

[Richard Barrett]

Ban knives because some people use them, or even create them, as weapons? If not confused, then muddled thinking.

I'm not talking about banning anything, as you'll notice if you read and understood my posts, I'm talking about a situation where something is no longer necessary. You on the other hand haven't said anything about what the use of national boundaries might be apart from as political tools.

Must rush, I have a plane to catch, travelling to the European Union today!