State of the parties as 2015 General Election looms.

[Beef Oven!]

I do

But there's a difference between what you're saying and what I think aeolium means. You like free movement of people because you are not good at handling the administration of gigs - you've not had previous experience of running the type of business where solid administrative know-how is key. Not your fault (if you like, I could help you with this and I'd even do the first few free).

But the solution is certainly not instituting a huge, anti-democratic, proto-fascist hallmarked, European superstate.

[Richard Barrett]

You like free movement of people because you are not good at handling the administration of gigs

Can't you give that tiresome mantra a rest?

The "problem" with the free movement of people (say within the EU, but this applies outside it too) is that it occurs within a context where the movement of capital is generally from poorer to richer areas, preserving and intensifying inequalities between states. If the EU wasn't divided between "richer" and "poorer" countries there would be no pressure for people to move from latter to former, and no need to limit their freedom to do so. The problem is not that internal borders in the EU are too permeable but that they're not permeable enough.

[amateur51]

But there's a difference between what you're saying and what I think aeolium means. You like free movement of people because you are not good at handling the administration of gigs - you've not had previous experience of running the type of business where solid administrative know-how is key. Not your fault (if you like, I could help you with this and I'd even do the first few free).

But the solution is certainly not instituting a huge, anti-democratic, proto-fascist hallmarked, European superstate.

Proto-fascist?

Have you seen who Farage has got in his EU grouping that nets UKIP 2 million euros?

[MrGongGong]

But there's a difference between what you're saying and what I think aeolium means. You like free movement of people because you are not good at handling the administration of gigs - you've not had previous experience of running the type of business where solid administrative know-how is key. Not your fault (if you like, I could help you with this and I'd even do the first few free).

But the solution is certainly not instituting a huge, anti-democratic, proto-fascist hallmarked, European superstate.

Aha another one of your false dichotomies again matey

I'm more than capable of administrating gigs thank you very much I would rather we spent more money on the actual business as opposed to more and more spurious and unnecessary administration.

The EU has faults BUT it's hardly "anti-democractic" compared to our own government.

[Beef Oven!]

Can't you give that tiresome mantra a rest?

When it ceases to be a central point to the discussion, I will.

The "problem" with the free movement of people (say within the EU, but this applies outside it too) is that it occurs within a context where the movement of capital is generally from poorer to richer areas, preserving and intensifying inequalities between states.

'Capital' has not moved from Bulgaria, Romania or Croatia (for example). But please do tell me where it has moved (concrete examples please, not 'Marxist' rhetoric).

If the EU wasn't divided between "richer" and "poorer" countries there would be no pressure for people to move from latter to former, and no need to limit their freedom to do so. The problem is not that internal borders in the EU are too permeable but that they're not permeable enough.

No borders in Europe, whatsoever? Why just Europe, why not the entire planet?

[Beef Oven!]

I'm more than capable of administrating gigs thank you very much

MrGG, IMVHO, if there is anyone on this planet that can free the music community from it's cultural myopia, it is you. But if you believe the EU, as is, is required in this noble objective, you need serious help on this side of things!!

N.B. R.B has spoken on this matter, so 'cave'!

[Richard Barrett]

'Capital' has not moved from Bulgaria, Romania or Croatia (for example)

Well, yes it has; multinational corporations use these countries as sources of cheap outsourced labour. In Romania, a few among many examples of well-known firms doing this are HP, Siemens, Bosch and IBM. While this mitigates to some extent the continuing unemployment problems in such countries, the surplus value of course flows upwards towards the shareholders.

[Richard Barrett]

No borders in Europe, whatsoever? Why just Europe, why not the entire planet?

Indeed.

[MrGongGong]

MrGG, IMVHO, if there is anyone on this planet that can free the music community from it's cultural myopia, it is you. But if you believe the EU, as is, is required in this noble objective, you need serious help on this side of things!!

"as is"

Most things (including all the music I have ever made) could be improved
but that doesn't happen by sending them to landfill

The free movement that the EU has facilitated has had a beneficial effect on the cultural life of the whole of Europe.

[Beef Oven!]

Well, yes it has; multinational corporations use these countries as sources of cheap outsourced labour. In Romania, a few among many examples of well-known firms doing this are HP, Siemens, Bosch and IBM. While this mitigates to some extent the continuing unemployment problems in such countries, the surplus value of course flows upwards towards the shareholders.

I do of course, perfectly understand and agree with what you are saying in theory, but can you give examples of firms that have switched their capital investment from such countries to 'richer' ones?

I'll give an example. Ford UK switched its operating capital from Southampton to Istanbul, Turkey (bolstered and encouraged with, cheap loans from the European Investment bank) in relation to the ("Backbone of British Industry") Ford Transit (white van-man!) production. Can you give an example (real, not theoretical) of capital going the other way?

[Beef Oven!]

"as is"

Most things (including all the music I have ever made) could be improved
but that doesn't happen by sending them to landfill

I think, perhaps, you actually like false dichotomies

The free movement that the EU has facilitated has had a beneficial affect on the cultural life of the whole of Europe.

But maybe not its lexicon

[Richard Barrett]

can you give examples of firms that have switched their capital investment from such countries to 'richer' ones?

That wasn't my point; I was talking about the return on the investment, not the investment itself, which of course is only made in order to maximise profits in relation to it.

[Beef Oven!]

That wasn't my point; I was talking about the return on the investment, not the investment itself, which of course is only made in order to maximise profits in relation to it.

I can go along with you in theory, but to move forward, it'd be instructive to have a real-life example of your assertion - a real-life example of your (arguably) armchair theorising; an example of a firm that has moved its operating capital from a 'poor' European country o a 'rich one.

[Beef Oven!]

Indeed.

Ok, I take you to mean that there should be no barriers whatsoever to immigration or emigration on the whole planet.

So you could up-sticks from Germany (or wherever) and I could quit north London and we could rock-up in Pakistan, decide it wasn't for us and relocate to New Zealand, on a whim? And so could anyone else.

[ahinton]

Ok, I take you to mean that there should be no barriers whatsoever to immigration or emigration on the whole planet.

So you could up-sticks from Germany (or wherever) and I could quit north London and we could rock-up in Pakistan, decide it wasn't for us and relocate to New Zealand, on a whim? And so could anyone else.

I really do not think that this is what Richard was suggesting - and I have to admit to being loath to believe that you thought so either!