State of the parties as 2015 General Election looms.

[MrGongGong]

Cameron (and the coalition, tbf) may have done a good job in managing the economy in difficult times BUT, he's definitely in trouble on his UKIP strategy

Maybe the tories should ditch him, now.

The whole point of being in the EU is so that we have the right to go anywhere in the EU and to work anywhere in the EU.
Some people in the UK seem to think that "we" can maintain the ability to do this for ourselves while restricting it for everyone else.
As i've said countless times, go to any UK airport or ferry port on a Sunday evening to see some of the hundreds of people doing all sorts of jobs travelling to work in other EU countries.
We shouldn't throw this away in a small minded act of ignorance.

"good job" has a different meaning depending on who you are and where you live IMV

[Beef Oven!]

Do you have a recommendable replacement in mind?

You'll need to make your own mind up. You've got until May. PM me if there's anything you don't understand.

[Beef Oven!]

The whole point of being in the EU is so that we have the right to go anywhere in the EU and to work anywhere in the EU.

No it's not. Stick to what you know and stop being ignorant.

[ahinton]

You'll need to make your own mind up. You've got until May. PM me if there's anything you don't understand.

I was asking you for your thoughts on this! Separately from that, I can indeed make up my own mind and do have an idea, actually, but perhaps I'd better keep that to myself! In any case, though, neither of us is in any position to do anything other than form an opinion as to a possible suitable alternative; it will be up to the Conservative Party alone either to do what it feels it has to do about its leadership or not if, as and when it might see fit.

[ahinton]

No it's not. Stick to what you know and stop being ignorant.

MrGG is largely correct about free movement of labour within EU; where he's not correct is that this is not, as he suggests, "the whole point" of EU - it's only one part of it.

[Beef Oven!]

MrGG is largely correct about free movement of labour within EU; where he's not correct is that this is not, as he suggests, "the whole point" of EU - it's only one pat of it.

If MrGG says the whole point of the EU is the free movement of labour, he must be completely wrong because he's talking about the whole point of the EU, not about the free movement of labour, as it applies to the EU.

That makes both of you wrong, can't you see that? Or have the effects of Risorgimento's accusations about you taken their toll?

[ahinton]

If MrGG says the whole point of the EU is the free movement of labour, he must be completely wrong because he's talking about the whole point of the EU, not about the free movement of labour, as it applies to the EU.

That makes both of you wrong, can't you see that?

No it doesn't and no I cannot. The EU is "about" many things, of which the unfettered movement of labour within the area that it covers is just one so, as I wrote above, MrGG is not correct in suggesting that "the whole point" of EU is that.

Or have the effects of Risorgimento's accusations about you taken their toll?

As I have neither read nor heard "accusations" about [sic - recte of] me, so clearly none has had any "effect", let alone taken any "toll"; trolls don't take tolls where I'm concerned, anyway and my knowledge of Risorgimento is confined to the contents of a handful of posts that he has contributed here and his evident inability to decide whether he wishes to belong to the forum which seems to have all the hallmarks of an in-out-shake-it-all-about referendum...

But never mind Risorgimento (whose views, if any, on EU and/or the free movement of labour within it are in any case unknown to me) - that free movement is one of the tenets of EU and, in practice, allows British citizens in principle to work in any of EU's currently 28 countries. It seems to me that at least some of those in Britain who reckon to oppose this do so from the standpoint that they wish to restrict numbers of people coming to Britain from other EU member states to take up work in Britain but would be far less likely to sanction like restrictions of British citizens working in any of the other 27 EU members states, which seems to me to be all too much like wanting to have one's British cake and eat it.

Had Scotland voted "yes" last month, would you have expected an "independent" Scotland to advocate labour movement restrictions?

[Beef Oven!]

Had Scotland voted "yes" last month, would you have expected an "independent" Scotland to advocate labour movement restrictions?

Their call.

But I wouldn't have expected them to - they (yes brigade) want to have their cake and eat it.

[ahinton]

Their call.

But I wouldn't have expected them to - they (yes brigade) want to have their cake and eat it.

Well, be that as it may, they can't have it now or for the foreseeable future.

That said, I would certainly not expect to be treated like an alien within EU in terms of entitlement to travel and work wherever I could secure work should I need to go abroad for such a purpose.

Much as I understand, insofar as is possible, certain people's concerns about overcrowding and the like, I remain mindful that, should only one in ten of all British citizens in possession of British passports and who have the right to live and work in Britain but who currently reside outside Britain decide to come to that country, those concerns in respect of free movement of labour within EU would become barely noticeable, "swamped" as it would become by so very much larger an issue; OK, the likelihood of such a mass influx of British citizens into Britain is remote, but it remains at least as much of a possibility as the tens of thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians that certain scaremongers were seeking a while ago to persuade Brits already living in Britain was the certainty that it has now been seen not to be.

[french frank]

What is interesting, though, is that as support for UKIP is rising, so is support for staying in the EU. This suggests that people are supporting UKIP in spite of its anti-EU stance, rather than because of it. Perhaps it's just the None of the Above vote?

As for free movement: the British believe they should be free to live and work anywhere in the EU, while at the same time opposing the right of all EU citizens to live and work in the UK.

This mobile vulgus knows what it wants right enough.

[ahinton]

What is interesting, though, is that as support for UKIP is rising, so is support for staying in the EU. This suggests that people are supporting UKIP in spite of its anti-EU stance, rather than because of it.

Can you (or indeed the pollsters) be so sure of that? Couldn't it be that most if not all of those polled are not the same people? - i.e. those who support UKIP and those who support Britain's continued EU membership not being the same people? Somehow I cannot imagine anyone wanting to support UKIP if they believe that Britain should remain an EU member sate...

As for free movement: the British believe they should be free to live and work anywhere in the EU, while at the same time opposing the right of all EU citizens to live and work in the UK.

Aye, there's the rub, as I suggested earlier; one rule for the Brits but another for the rest of EU's 450m or so citizens, or so it would appear. Too much of that for too long and perhaps UK might no longer need to hold that in/out referendum after all because it might just risk getting itself chucked out of EU.

[french frank]

Can you (or indeed the pollsters) be so sure of that? Couldn't it be that most if not all of those polled are not the same people? - i.e. those who support UKIP and those who support Britain's continued EU membership not being the same people?

The individuals are most unlikely to be the very same individuals, but samples do show up clear general national trends. It's equally unlikely that the representative samples don't at least overlap in view: although the person polled about staying in the EU will not also be one of those polled on voting intention, it is likely to be the case that a sample 'representative' of one trend is also 'representative' of the other trend; otherwise the theory behind representative sampling doesn't work at all.

I'd have thought ...

[teamsaint]

The whole point of being in the EU is so that we have the right to go anywhere in the EU and to work anywhere in the EU.
Some people in the UK seem to think that "we" can maintain the ability to do this for ourselves while restricting it for everyone else.
As i've said countless times, go to any UK airport or ferry port on a Sunday evening to see some of the hundreds of people doing all sorts of jobs travelling to work in other EU countries.
We shouldn't throw this away in a small minded act of ignorance.

"good job" has a different meaning depending on who you are and where you live IMV

most people in the UK don't do "good" jobs. Most people do poor quality under paid, or over stressed jobs , with ever decreasing pay rates. Those pay rates are determined by the market, which is controlled by government decisions, and lack of government support for increased minimum wage.

Manipulating labour markets is always a bad thing ( according to the narrative) when done by people like unions, but when it is governments doing it, it always seems to be a good thing.

most of the people that I see travelling long distances to work(nationally or internationally) don't really look like they are enjoying the experience.

There is some mad stuff going on in our world.

[MrGongGong]

There is a Pedants corner available

SO maybe not ALL the points about the EU
but one of the main things that we need to keep

good enough for you ?

[MrGongGong]

No it's not. Stick to what you know and stop being ignorant.

Of course your chums want to stop people from being able to travel to work in other parts of Europe.
How on earth is that a good idea ?