oh Mrs Duffy

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

the Big 'Un's encounter with Mrs Duffy turns out to be a pivotal moment that identifies the gulf in politics concerning immigration that is fuelling the rise of UKIP ... and it seems to me that no one dare stand up and nail the arguments of Farage et al about immigration and the EU ... the scandal is how this charlatan has been left to get on with his miasma of half truths and nonsense with no serious rebuttal ..

[french frank]

Something about the devil having all the best tunes?

[aeolium]

In my view a miasma has also clouded the liberal understanding of attitudes towards immigration, a mistaken assumption that any opposition to immigration is necessarily racist and/or bigoted, as well as an assumption on the part of governments that a continuing rapid rate of net immigration would not provoke serious and widespread opposition, to the point where it is estimated that opposition to immigration levels is now running at 80% in England and Wales. It is now clearly one of the most salient issues in UK national politics and especially in the last two European elections. I am frustrated that persistent failure on the part of the establishment to seek to understand the nature and causes of this phenomenon has resulted in the spectacular rise of a populist party with imv dangerous and largely incoherent policies.

I suspect that few on these boards read papers of this kind, but in my view this Demos report, written by Eric Kaufmann and Gareth Harris and published this year, is absolutely indispensable for the understanding of some of these trends and attitudes and shows why simply attempting to rebut "half-truths and nonsense" will no more work in the future than it has worked in the past:

http://www.demos.co.uk/files/Changing_places_-_web.pdf?1411989188

[french frank]

I know that no-one on these boards ever reads papers of this kind, but in my view it is absolutely indispensable for the understanding of some of these trends and attitudes and shows why simply attempting to rebut "half-truths and nonsense" will no more work in the future than it has worked in the past:

http://www.demos.co.uk/files/Changin...pdf?1411989188

I started copying out key passages to post here - but there were too many of them!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

on the contrary aeolium, reading such good work is a delight

i do think half truths and nonsense need dispelling because i have a vestige of faith in the rational voter and there are many issues where the finger routinely and untruthfully points at Brussels rather than Whitehall

[aeolium]

Then I will edit my post about no-one reading such stuff, calum and ff :-)

One thing the paper seems to stress is that it is the pace of change that is a problem, not that people cannot over a period of time absorb and accommodate immigration - as indeed they have successfully on previous occasions, e.g. with the Commonwealth immigrants. The parallels with earlier spikes in immigration in other countries, e.g. C19 America and Scotland in the late C19 and early C20 (see pp 87-91) are instructive in the way those spikes also fuelled powerful anti-immigration feeling.

[agingjb]

Whatever Gordon Brown said, and apologised for, it worked. Labour gained the Rochdale seat from the Lib Dems at the 2010 election.

[Risorgimento]

Then I will edit my post about no-one reading such stuff, calum and ff :-)

One thing the paper seems to stress is that it is the pace of change that is a problem, not that people cannot over a period of time absorb and accommodate immigration - as indeed they have successfully on previous occasions, e.g. with the Commonwealth immigrants. The parallels with earlier spikes in immigration in other countries, e.g. C19 America and Scotland in the late C19 and early C20 (see pp 87-91) are instructive in the way those spikes also fuelled powerful anti-immigration feeling.

You could well be right although I am always chary of comparing past events with today since there are many factors in play that will affect people's views. The economy of the time, no social media then etc. It's a bit like people saying that the average daily wage in country X is [insert pitifully small amount to our way of thinking] but then forgetting to say that, for example, a loaf of bread will cost a tiny, tiny fraction of what it costs us. So the daily wage statement is meaningless without context.

[MrGongGong]

In my view a miasma has also clouded the liberal understanding of attitudes towards immigration, a mistaken assumption that any opposition to immigration is necessarily racist and/or bigoted,

I read this a fair bit these days
The problem (IMV) is that many of the people who forcibly say this (and I'm not saying everyone) ARE bigoted and/or racist.
The Kippers (he said as the train pulls into Arbroath ..... what a wonderful co-incidence) are a perfect example of this.
Dressing offensive and obnoxious beliefs in "logic" or "common sense" is widespread in all flavours of politics

Thanks for the link, will have a read

[Risorgimento]

.....
The Kippers (he said as the train pulls into Arbroath ..... what a wonderful co-incidence) are a perfect example of this.
....

Really? Any evidence to support this? Just because they realise that Labour's ethnic-cleansing policy aka multiculturalism hasn't worked doesn't mean that they are racist.

[amateur51]

Really? Any evidence to support this? Just because they realise that Labour's ethnic-cleansing policy aka multiculturalism hasn't worked doesn't mean that they are racist.

Mote? Eye?

Let's start with 'Labour's ethnic-cleansing policy'

As to evidence, I'll re-post an earlier thing I wrote ...


"Farage is making up policy as he goes along, which I guess he is entitled to do, but he does seem a bit accident-prone, witness his recent outburst about refusing entry to people who are HIV positive because the NHS is overloaded and treatment is expensive.

Let's analyse this a bit (ahem). According to National AIDS Trust, by the end of 2012, an estimated 98,400 people were living with HIV in the UK, including about 77,610 people diagnosed with HIV and 21,900 who were infected but undiagnosed.
- See more at: http://www.nat.org.uk/HIV-Facts/Stat....2bALoTGO.dpuf

Is this huge in NHS terms? Let's look at a seriously prevalent disease in UK. At the end of 2013, the known diagnosed population with diabetes is now 3.2 million people or 6% of population, making HIV infection pretty small beer in terms of workload.

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/About_us/What-we-say/Statistics/Diabetes-prevalence-2013/

If Farage were serious about NHS workload, he would have gone for diabetes before HIV, I'd suggest. By going for HIV, Farage appears to me to be targetting unpopular grouips, such as gay men and people from immigrants from Africa, good solid UKIP targets. This feeds the UKIP populist 'let's drag the country back to the 1970s' line."

Will this do?
'

[french frank]

Labour's ethnic-cleansing policy aka multiculturalism hasn't worked

I don't think I quite understand this. I can see that abolishing multiculturalism might involve targeted ethnic cleansing, but is anyone suggesting such a policy?

[MrGongGong]

Really? Any evidence to support this? Just because they realise that Labour's ethnic-cleansing policy aka multiculturalism hasn't worked doesn't mean that they are racist.

What do you mean by "multiculturalism hasn't worked" ?
Because what I see as I travel about the UK is that in the main it's working wonderfully
Can you (or anyone else who uses this piece of "received wisdom") give me an example ?

Have a look at our "multicultural" symphony orchestras ?

Whilst the Kippers (like the BNP) are very careful to make sure they don't print or publish anything that would label them as such (with a few "slip ups" from time to time) many people are drawn to them (and NOT ALL) because they are a home for people with racist views.

[amateur51]

I don't think I quite understand this. I can see that abolishing multiculturalism might involve targeted ethnic cleansing, but is anyone suggesting such a policy?

Give Nigel time, he's still learning not to snigger every time he hears Carsewell's name.

[french frank]

What do you mean by "multiculturalism hasn't worked" ?

I expect Risorgimento means that there have, subsequently, been certain problems to which aeolium was alluding. But to use 'ethnic cleansing' to describe the policy trivialises the horrific atrocities that have been carried out in various parts of the world which DO deserve that emotive description.