whence & thither

[P. G. Tipps]

Sad, sad, sad Scotty
Why do you (and others) assume that becoming more educated means that you won't earn money ?

If all (ALL) education was directed at getting well paid work then it's bye bye History, Music, English and most of the other things we value (including theoretical physics !).

I'm currently involved in re-designing a music degree course. One of the things we are trying to encourage is students to have experiences that change how they think about music. Many of our most exciting composers went to university to study one thing then discovered all sorts of stuff they didn't know existed. Surely THIS is central to what the experience is about?

I don't disagree with much of what you say except the 'sad' and 'scotty' bits which are altogether very silly.

All these things you mention depend on MONEY. You may deplore that and I'm not a great fan of reality either but that's just the way it is and has ALWAYS been. You need MONEY to buy the basics for any artist or inventive genius to succeed in the world just ask any artist or inventive genius! Previous centuries were no different.

It is all very well thousands of students wandering around just 'thinking' ... we also need the many more 'doers' to help us all survive!

Dead people can't either 'think' or 'do'!

[visualnickmos]

. . . All these things you mention depend on MONEY. You may deplore that and I'm not a great fan of reality either but that's just the way it is and has ALWAYS been. You need MONEY to buy the basics for any artist or inventive genius to succeed in the world just ask any artist or inventive genius!
. . . It is all very well thousands of students wandering around just 'thinking' ... we also need the many more 'doers' to help us all survive!

Crikey PG - we seem to be in agreement with each other quite a lot these days! Bring it on, I say...

[P. G. Tipps]

Crikey PG - we seem to be in agreement with each other quite a lot these days! Bring it on, I say...

Don't be surprised, visualnickmos! I think we may well have misunderstood each other in previous encounters, due to, er, shall we say, malign external influences attempting to disrupt proper debate? Or maybe not ... that is a matter for you to decide not me!

Whatever, it's refreshing to witness a member who obviously bears no grudges over a simple diversion of view.

Vive La France!

[Dave2002]

Why would you go to university to "study for a job" ?
That's not what all it's for at all.

Précis!

[visualnickmos]

Précis!

But surely, ultimately and cutting to the chase, that is why people opt to go - unless one is fortunate enough to not have to think about one is to make a living.

[MrGongGong]

All these things you mention depend on MONEY. You may deplore that and I'm not a great fan of reality either but that's just the way it is and has ALWAYS been. You need MONEY to buy the basics for any artist or inventive genius to succeed in the world just ask any artist or inventive genius! Previous centuries were no different.

Try reading what people write, you never know, you might actually learn something ?

Why do you (and others) assume that becoming more educated means that you won't earn money ?

But surely, ultimately and cutting to the chase, that is why people opt to go - unless one is fortunate enough to not have to think about one is to make a living.

HOW do you know this ?

Even today, the vast majority of students I meet don't think this.

[P. G. Tipps]

Try reading what people write, you never know, you might actually learn something ?

Oh I can read okay, the problem here appears to lie in what some people write ...

Who said that becoming more educated means that you won't earn money? Certainly not me! It was just that you appeared to suggest that getting a job at the end of a university course was not the be all and end all of everything. In fact I think you actually said as much, didn't you?!

It is kinda difficult earning money if you don't have a job/career so maybe you might explain how one, whether more or less educated, can possibly earn money without one?

[ahinton]

Oh I can read okay, the problem here appears to lie in what some people write ...

Some people, indeed...

Who said that becoming more educated means that you won't earn money? Certainly not me! It was just that you appeared to suggest that getting a job at the end of a university course was not the be all and end all of everything. In fact I think you actually said as much, didn't you?!

It is kinda difficult earning money if you don't have a job/career so maybe you might explain how one, whether more or less educated, can possibly earn money without one?

It's pretty obvious that those with degrees stand a better chance of securing employment but, at the same time, there's no guarantee that employment will fall into the laps of those who have them. Futhermore, MrGG is quite correct in stating "that getting a job at the end of a university course was not the be all and end all of everything"; ineed, apart from any other considerations (and there are plenty), were it to be true there'd need to be a most massive instant job creation scheme in place in order to accommodate into employed positions all university students immediately they complete their courses!

[MrGongGong]

So I said this

Why would you go to university to "study for a job" ?
That's not what all it's for at all.

And (predictably) it was taken to mean that I didn't think you needed to earn money to live

You need MONEY to buy the basics

zzzzzzzzzz

And then we have this assumption

unless one is fortunate enough to not have to think about one is to make a living.

Which (to me reading) implies that only folks who are well off can afford to do things other than be obsessed with thinking about £ all the time. This is, of course, nonsense.

[ahinton]

So I said this
"Why would you go to university to "study for a job" ?
That's not what all it's for at all."
And (predictably) it was taken to mean that I didn't think you needed to earn money to live.

Quite; it's a peculiar kind of "logic" that determines this...

And then we have this assumption
"unless one is fortunate enough to not have to think about one is to make a living"
Which (to me reading) implies that only folks who are well off can afford to do things other than be obsessed with thinking about £ all the time. This is, of course, nonsense.

I had to read it a couple of times because the grammar clouds what's being said but, on the basis that the intention was to make exceptions of those who are sufficiently well off not to need to work for money, I'm not quite sure that you're correct on this; those who already have private incomes large enough to exonerate them from the need to earn money might nevertheless work because they choose to do so and, if that's what they want to do, they need to be able to sell their services to employers like all other prospective employees or to form and run their own businesses like all other self-employed people and a university education will be as valuable to them as to anyone else in order to make it easier for them to do this.

That said, the prospect of the launch of expanded apprenticeship arrangements - if indeed it comes about and if it is successful - might at least result in the affording of better prospects to those who feel unable to benefit from university education (which, after all, is not for everyone).

[MrGongGong]

Quite; it's a peculiar kind of "logic" that determines this...


I had to read it a couple of times because the grammar clouds what's being said but, on the basis that the intention was to make exceptions of those who are sufficiently well off not to need to work for money, I'm not quite sure that you're correct on this; those who already have private incomes large enough to exonerate them from the need to earn money might nevertheless work because they choose to do so and, if that's what they want to do, they need to be able to sell their services to employers like all other prospective employees or to form and run their own businesses like all other self-employed people and a university education will be as valuable to them as to anyone else in order to make it easier for them to do this.
.

Apologies for wild English (I blame the Grammar School and all that Shakespeare)

I guess that you are like most composers then, so ridiculously rich that all they do is sit about musing about complex harmonic schemes ? (ummm maybe not ?)

[P. G. Tipps]

Some people, indeed...

Indeed, ahinton!

It's pretty obvious that those with degrees stand a better chance of securing employment but, at the same time, theres' no guarantee that employment will fall into the laps of those who have them. Futhermore, MrGG is quite correct in stating "that getting a job at the end of a university course was not the be all and end all of everything"; ineed, apart from any other considerations (and there are plenty), were it to be true there'd need to be a most massive instant job creation scheme in place in order to accommodate into employed positions all university students immediately they complete their courses!

Well, I don't think anyone here has challenged the point in your first sentence so why raise it?
Certainly getting a job/career may not be the be all and end all of everything but I would suggest that is is most young people's priority whether one ends up at university or not!

Surely the first thing we learn is that, unless we are to be solely reliant on others' money, we must eat, drink, clothe and house ourselves before we have even a cat-in-hell's chance of learning and doing anything else in life whether we study at university or not?

That is the point, ahinton!

[P. G. Tipps]

Why would you go to university to "study for a job" ?
That's not what all it's for at all.

And that's what you said!

You now seem to be saying that earning money has nothing to do with what you said. Surely one takes a job to earn money and not just for the love of it?

So, I suspect, a 'job' and 'money' might appear to go hand in hand to most of us in the real world.

[MrGongGong]

And that's what you said!

You now seem to be saying that earning money has nothing to do with what you said. Surely one takes a job to earn money and not just for the love of it?

So, I suspect, a 'job' and 'money' might appear to go hand in hand to most of us in the real world.

What on earth is the "real world" ?
Other meaningless cliches are available

What I mean't was that the primary purpose of going to university isn't to "get a job".
Surely one of the main points about EDUCATION is that it's NOT necessarily about TRAINING but about EDUCATION (the clue is in the word).

If earning lots of money (and most of us don't) was the only reason to do things,then the world would be a much poorer place indeed.

Surely one takes a job to earn money

Some of us DO earn money from the work we do.
BUT, that's not why we do it, some things are simply worth spending time and effort on.
There are many ways to earn money.

[ahinton]

Apologies for wild English (I blame the Grammar School and all that Shakespeare)

It wasn't yours to whch I referred!

I guess that you are like most composers then, so ridiculously rich that all they do is sit about musing about complex harmonic schemes ? (ummm maybe not ?)

To the extent that the total figure on the four times p.a. PRS statements covers the cost of a few gin and tonics, you could say that (although I couldn't possibly comment!). Actually, most definitely not, since most composers, irrespective of their income levels from composition and/or other sources and regardless of the amounts of their private wealth (if any) don't so much "sit about musing" as the - er - WORK!